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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 745695" data-attributes="member: 2205">Celtavian -- I think basically, I just feel like griping and you are positive about D&D in general is our only remaining difference!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />   I agree with pretty much everything you say, and you seem to be agreeing with most of what I say, but somehow our perceptions of what that means are miles apart.I've been very clear that really only small things need to be modified to achieve a very different feel.  I don't want to play GURPS, I actually really like d20.  I just don't particularly like "straight from the book" D&D, at least not for every campaign, because I like to change things to a different feel, preferably one that resembles the environments and settings of the fantasy literature that brought me into the hobby in the first place.That, and maybe we've had a history of different players.  You say the groups you've gamed with have no difficulty adapting D&D to the style of game you want.  I, on the other hand, have had to adapt the rules in order to adapt the style, because otherwise D&D tends to play out pretty much the same way.  The mechanics do influence the style, and the mechanics were designed to facilitate a certain style over other styles.  If you disagree with that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, although as I said, I'll certainly (and gladly) concede that the changes one needs aren't really major in order to get a style more to my liking.Barsoomcore, I did say that, but it was somewhat tangential to my original position -- you can't tell the same type of stories exactly because the media are too different.  Great novel stories usually make lousy RPG plots, and to a certain extent, the opposite also holds true.  The examples you hold out are certainly great examples of that principle.  But I am saying more than that -- there is an almost "ingrained" D&D outlook I've seen with most folks that I play with.  When I play D&D it feels like I'm playing D&D, no matter what I try to do to influence the style or tone.  When I start changing some of the rules, I get the kinds of results and reactions I like from my players.The system certainly isn't broken, it just isn't exactly what I want without some tweaking.And before we lose sight of the original intent of my post, in particular, I don't like the concept that PCs are wandering adventurers looking for someone who happens to have a problem that a band of adventurers would solve.  That much, at least, can be solved without changing any rules, if you have a DM (and some players) who are willing to work around it.  The Freeport story hour, and Sagiro's Story hour are great examples of what I prefer to do -- have the PCs work for either some patron or some patron organization that gives them more of a raison d'etre for their adventures than simply running around hoping the local country baron needs you to clear out a cave full of orcs.That was really all I said, and I didn't mean to go off on systems issues at all.  I think, Celtavian, if I understand you correctly, that after going the long way around, that's sorta what you're saying too -- good plots make good games.  To me, the concept of an adventurer is a plot that's kinda run it's course; it's difficult for me to find interesting and novel things to do with that idea anymore, having tried just about every permutation of that concept that I can over the years.</blockquote>

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