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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 4405610" data-attributes="member: 5834">reThat statement is completely untrue. Proof:Let's say a creature has a Reflex defense of 16 and an A.C. of 18 with prime stats of 20 and lvl 1.Wizard chance to hit +5 needs 11 or better against Reflex. Rogue with rapier chance to hit +8 needs 8 or better against reflex and 10 or better against A.C. Either way the rogue has the advantage, and an even greater advantage against Reflex defense.Let's toss in some other classes:Fighter with Greatsword chance to hit +9 needs 9 or better versus A.C.Wizard still needs 11 or better against Relfex defense.Paladin with greatsword +8 to hit needs 10 or better versus A.C.This was the question posed not what you stated. It wasn't was said in the original post. The original post stated that the wizard received no advantage (not a handicap) for attacking another defense because alot of low level monsters have A.C. and defenses that are equal to (wizard is handicapped when this occurs) or close to each other.Then I stated the rogue can attack reflex defense which is a great advtange to them...because...they get a proficiency bonus. So that even when they attack reflex defense, they do it much better than the wizard.The wizard gains no real advantage by attacking another defense due to having no proficiency bonus, while many other classes receive their proficiency bonus even when attacking a different defense. And if the A.C. of the creature is not at least 2 or 3 higher than their other defenses, then the proficiency bonus offsets any advantage the wizard has...yet still grants the rogue a great advantage striking a lower reflex defense because he will get his proficiency bonus against even the slightly lower reflex defense that gives no advantage to the wizard.The wizard has about the same chance to hit as a melee because of the proficiency bonus, and thus gains no advantage attacking other defenses. It is a handicap when the defenses he can attack are equal to or within 1 or 2 points of A.C.Since we've been fighting alot of skirmishers and artillery lately, we've been running into creatures with pretty good reflex defenses. The wizard isn't hitting as easy as the other players, especially the rogue who hits quite well against Reflex or A.C. due to his proficiency bonus.It should be very apparent to any player or DM that has run the game that a proficiency bonus increases the chance to hit enough to offset the advantage of higher A.C. a great deal of the time thus giving the wizard no advantage striking against other defenses. Then what are you arguing? Reflex defense can be more advantageous to strike for the rogue while at the same time being no more advantageous to strike for the wizard. That is a a completey true statement.The rogue has the advantage targeting A.C. or Reflex defense. It doesn't matter which.If Reflex defense is equal to A.C., he hits easier than the wizard.If Reflex defense is lower than A.C., he still hits easier than the wizard.If you compare the wizard to other classes, A.C. must be at least 2 to 3 points higher than a given defense (I did include all the defenses, not just reflex), then the wizard receives no advantage to strking those defenses.So I'm not getting how you two can't see that the wizard receives no advantage striking other defenses due to no weapon proficiency bonus. And tje wizard is at a disadvantage (handicap) in comparison to the rogue and any character that can apply his proficiency bonus when striking a defense other than A.C.That was my point in the first post. The wizard receives no advantage for striking other defenses, and is often at a disadvantage because A.C. and defenses are similar on many of the low level creatures we have fought. On top of that he doesn't gain combat advantage for ranged attacks that many melee characters take the time to set up.So there are a variety of reasons why the wizard is at a disadvantage in combat depending on the type of creatures we are fighting. You could even include that the choice of weapon also grants an advantage to melees, because so few melees choose weapons that do less than d8 or d10 which is higher than the wizards standard attack. And when he doesn't have minions to slay, the wizard's standard attack is weaker than most other characters.So my original statement stands. The wizard gains  gains no advantage from attacking other defenses a great deal of the time. There are occasions when he does, but they have been rare for us.I also say the rogue gains an advantage over the wizard attacking either reflex or A.C. It doesn't matter which, he will always be able to choose more advantageous defense.That means that a lower reflex defense benefits a rogue far more than it benefits a wizard no matter how you look at it. I didn't see why this was such a problem to understand.</blockquote>

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