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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ObsidianCrane" data-source="post: 4406228" data-attributes="member: 54918">Plane Sailing you are blurring the argument. The comparison is attack rolls based on ability +mods vs ability + proficiency + mods - the math is far more relevant for such a comparison than artifical situational , or experiential comparison.Taking the CoD example, the point of comparison is the initial Attack Roll vs Reflex. If the wizard had a proficency bonus for that attack roll it would be very much analgous to the Rogue's +2 with a Crossbow (which it can be for a Wand wizard btw). The spell then becomes situationally better or worse after the success of the attack roll in terms of damage dealt according to how much Wisdom the wizard has and if one or more creatures can be forced into the area while it persists.I like wizards, my play experience says they are fine. Sure they don't hit quite as often as the people with a proficiency mod on their attacks but they seem to hit often enough (often due to weight of attack rolls) to make a good contribution to the game and the party and for their player to have fun. Some people's experiences say otherwise, I'm interested in that because it gives me pointers on how things can go wrong. Yet that has nothing to do with the issue of Rogue vs Wizard in terms of attacking AC or Ref, that comparison is simple maths.Oh and I agree with the person who noted that we will need more controllers to decide if the Wizard is balanced or not.</blockquote>

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