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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8976209" data-attributes="member: 6801252">"a full accounting of what they also don't like about those games" is a very good summary of how people who like trad games talk about trad games as well, incidentally. Spaces that center on DND are endlessly re-litigating whether they're about problem-solving or character portrayal and how being about both creates problems, how much the story of the GM or the story of the players should be in the spotlight (including discussions of what each of those things mean), whether player characters should actually be able to die and what ludonarrative permission is required to make that acceptable, whether Vancian casting is any good or if it's actually sucked for all of these years, whether exploration has any value or if those of us who like it should be drowned in a river, whether GMs should actually be allowed to fudge dice rolls or not, whether its acceptable to engage in illusionism even when the book says it is. That applies to the likes of VTM as well as DND, and most of these debates are basically just predicated on what people don't like about trad games, but with the added context that they are played flexibly enough to have communities with radically different perspectives on each of those issues.</blockquote>