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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8981494" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't follow. [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER] asserts that there's a difference between X and Y. The fact that a particular game might be Y rather than X doesn't show there's no difference!But also, the fact that 5e D&amp;D doesn't exemplify its X-ness via the particular mode I described doesn't show it's not X. My overwhelming impression is that 5e D&amp;D, as actually played, is mostly a version of exemplifying the idea of the character, not challenging the idea of the character.Oathbreaker paladins are not part of a system for challenging the idea of the character. They're a method for giving mechanical expression to the idea of a fallen paladin.And the idea of the milieu responding to a character is all about the content of the fiction. Whereas [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER]'s contrast is not about the content of the fiction, but about the purpose and the focus of play.The RPGs you mention are all examples of [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER]'s X (ie &quot;exemplifying the idea of the character&quot;).None of them is a RPG widely used to play a game of &quot;challenge the idea of the character&quot; - they could be drifted in that direction, but the drifting will reveal the mechanical limits of their frameworks.The idea of &quot;seeking out situations&quot; already shows the difference that you deny. In Burning Wheel (or Apocalypse World) there is no &quot;seeking out situations&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8981494, member: 42582"] I don't follow. [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER] asserts that there's a difference between X and Y. The fact that a particular game might be Y rather than X doesn't show there's no difference! But also, the fact that 5e D&D doesn't exemplify its X-ness [I]via the particular mode I described[/I] doesn't show it's not X. My overwhelming impression is that 5e D&D, as actually played, is mostly a version of [I]exemplifying the idea of the character[/I], not [I]challenging the idea of the character[/I]. [I]Oathbreaker paladins[/I] are not part of a system for [I]challenging[/I] the idea of the character. They're a method for giving mechanical expression to the idea of a fallen paladin. And the idea of the milieu responding to a character is all about the content of the fiction. Whereas [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER]'s contrast is not about the content of the fiction, but about the purpose and the focus of play. The RPGs you mention are all examples of [USER=6925338]@soviet[/USER]'s X (ie "exemplifying the idea of the character"). None of them is a RPG widely used to play a game of "challenge the idea of the character" - they could be drifted in that direction, but the drifting will reveal the mechanical limits of their frameworks. The idea of "seeking out situations" already shows the difference that you deny. In Burning Wheel (or Apocalypse World) there is no "seeking out situations". [/QUOTE]

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