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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
April 3rd, Rule of 3
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5887746" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>Certainly. And that is also true of 3E compared to earlier editions, despite some of the claims people have made. The only way that 3E is "just like early D&D, only cleaned up and better" is if you had a certain slant on D&D in the earlier versions, which 3E has now done a better job handling. </p><p> </p><p>The problem in this discussion (and really from the launch of 3E, and maybe even 2E) is that apparently some people have a rather constricted view of what D&D can do, should do, can do well, has done well, most people have so used it, etc. (This is the root of the mistaken, "if you had played it in the old days, you wouldn't believe X" comments.) Others have wider views. Furthermore, those with the wider views are not always consistent with each other, or equally wide. It is quite clear that some of those with the more narrow views <strong>do not believe those of us with the wider views</strong>. They think we are mistaken, lying, remembering D&D through rose-colored memories, caught up in nostalgia, changed preferenes without realizing it, etc. I think they are provincial--with all the flaws and charms that entails. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> It brings to mind Tolkiens' comments to his critics in that later edition of LotR. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p> </p><p>It's also true that if you drew a Venn diagram of what each edition did well, and then what it did adequately, and then what it did relatively poorly ... you'd have an unholy mess of a diagram, but I digress. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> Those differences in results are differences in the various systems. It would, however, take a Venn diagram (or maybe several) to do such a comparison justice. There is a line drawn through the editions, where one can roughly trace the evolution of the game, but it is a line drawn by a sidewinder rattlesnake crawling through snow after pulling a 72 hour shift, while hopped up on LSD. You can follow it, but it doesn't always go anywhere consistent. </p><p> </p><p>This is why I can, for example, make a comparison between 4E and BECMI and be perfectly serious. For others, this will sound like I'm saying that an apple and a truck are alike because they both happen to be red. There are parts of BECMI that I took advantage of, not least because of my preferences in fantasy stories, that are not something that everyone appreciates. </p><p> </p><p>And through it all lurks the dispute on the importance or lack thereof of immersion. There just really is no getting around that, anymore than we could conduct trade between the various English-speaking nations while pretending there was not difference in currency. If acknowledged, it can be coped with, but it has to be acknowledged, from both sides, for there to be clear results. So far, that has not happened.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5887746, member: 54877"] Certainly. And that is also true of 3E compared to earlier editions, despite some of the claims people have made. The only way that 3E is "just like early D&D, only cleaned up and better" is if you had a certain slant on D&D in the earlier versions, which 3E has now done a better job handling. The problem in this discussion (and really from the launch of 3E, and maybe even 2E) is that apparently some people have a rather constricted view of what D&D can do, should do, can do well, has done well, most people have so used it, etc. (This is the root of the mistaken, "if you had played it in the old days, you wouldn't believe X" comments.) Others have wider views. Furthermore, those with the wider views are not always consistent with each other, or equally wide. It is quite clear that some of those with the more narrow views [B]do not believe those of us with the wider views[/B]. They think we are mistaken, lying, remembering D&D through rose-colored memories, caught up in nostalgia, changed preferenes without realizing it, etc. I think they are provincial--with all the flaws and charms that entails. :p It brings to mind Tolkiens' comments to his critics in that later edition of LotR. ;) It's also true that if you drew a Venn diagram of what each edition did well, and then what it did adequately, and then what it did relatively poorly ... you'd have an unholy mess of a diagram, but I digress. :D Those differences in results are differences in the various systems. It would, however, take a Venn diagram (or maybe several) to do such a comparison justice. There is a line drawn through the editions, where one can roughly trace the evolution of the game, but it is a line drawn by a sidewinder rattlesnake crawling through snow after pulling a 72 hour shift, while hopped up on LSD. You can follow it, but it doesn't always go anywhere consistent. This is why I can, for example, make a comparison between 4E and BECMI and be perfectly serious. For others, this will sound like I'm saying that an apple and a truck are alike because they both happen to be red. There are parts of BECMI that I took advantage of, not least because of my preferences in fantasy stories, that are not something that everyone appreciates. And through it all lurks the dispute on the importance or lack thereof of immersion. There just really is no getting around that, anymore than we could conduct trade between the various English-speaking nations while pretending there was not difference in currency. If acknowledged, it can be coped with, but it has to be acknowledged, from both sides, for there to be clear results. So far, that has not happened. [/QUOTE]
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