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Aragorn and spellcasting
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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 2038758" data-attributes="member: 2205"><p>Because he actually carried out the procedures. You answered your own question later on in the thread when you asked why he couldn't just tell Pippin what to do. Because he wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy if he did.</p><p></p><p>This is similar to when he uses the palantir successfully, which even Gandalf wouldn't do. It was his right; he was the heir, so he could do it. He certainly didn't have more power than Gandalf, but he had <em>the right</em> and the mantle of kingship, so he did it. Could someone else have done it? Don't know. Clearly Denethor used the palantir repeatedly. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, I think the value and use of knowledge as a marker of nobility is clearly established in Tolkien. I already mentioned Faramir vs. Boromir. I could troll the books for numerous other quotes by Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others that support this view.</p><p></p><p>Oh, but there is. When Aragorn goes looking for it after the attack on Weathertop he told Sam that it was brought by the Numenoreans and still only grew in areas where they had lived or camped. In fact, there is no clear connection of athelas with the king per se other than it's common name of kingsfoil. That combined with Tolkien's own beliefs in the sanctity of kingship, and his penchant for identifying the king as a living personification of the nation he leads, doesn't lead me to believe that kingsfoil is to be interpreted as something <em>only</em> the kings could use. In fact, IIRC, Elrond and Glorfindel both referred to its use in regards to Frodo as well, and clearly neither of them were kings.</p><p></p><p>Now, if you want a plant that's clearly associated with the king, you could talk about the white tree. But that's different.</p><p></p><p>Tolkien said many times that the lore and wisdom of Gondor had waned over the years.</p><p></p><p>It has nothing whatsoever to do with Aragorn's use of athelas and everything to do with his fulfilling of prophecy.</p><p></p><p>No, he wouldn't have. For one thing, he had to diagnose the problem first, and then if you recall, he had to go on a massive search for athelas. The Gondorians didn't even keep any, not valuing the plant at all.</p><p></p><p>As to your reductive reasoning, you're still discounting the fact that if Aragorn hadn't done the healing himself, then he wouldn't have been fulfilling prophecy. Aragorn fulfilled all kinds of prophecies; this one was simply a more public fulfillment that served to signal to all the Gondorians that he was the true king.</p><p></p><p>If your going to continue to insist that the text clearly indicates this, I'd like to see the quote. In my opinion, no such clear indication is made, and a more likely interpretation of it was that Aragorn was destined to fulfill prophecy, not use some kind of magical king-power.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 2038758, member: 2205"] Because he actually carried out the procedures. You answered your own question later on in the thread when you asked why he couldn't just tell Pippin what to do. Because he wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy if he did. This is similar to when he uses the palantir successfully, which even Gandalf wouldn't do. It was his right; he was the heir, so he could do it. He certainly didn't have more power than Gandalf, but he had [i]the right[/i] and the mantle of kingship, so he did it. Could someone else have done it? Don't know. Clearly Denethor used the palantir repeatedly. Anyway, I think the value and use of knowledge as a marker of nobility is clearly established in Tolkien. I already mentioned Faramir vs. Boromir. I could troll the books for numerous other quotes by Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others that support this view. Oh, but there is. When Aragorn goes looking for it after the attack on Weathertop he told Sam that it was brought by the Numenoreans and still only grew in areas where they had lived or camped. In fact, there is no clear connection of athelas with the king per se other than it's common name of kingsfoil. That combined with Tolkien's own beliefs in the sanctity of kingship, and his penchant for identifying the king as a living personification of the nation he leads, doesn't lead me to believe that kingsfoil is to be interpreted as something [i]only[/i] the kings could use. In fact, IIRC, Elrond and Glorfindel both referred to its use in regards to Frodo as well, and clearly neither of them were kings. Now, if you want a plant that's clearly associated with the king, you could talk about the white tree. But that's different. Tolkien said many times that the lore and wisdom of Gondor had waned over the years. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Aragorn's use of athelas and everything to do with his fulfilling of prophecy. No, he wouldn't have. For one thing, he had to diagnose the problem first, and then if you recall, he had to go on a massive search for athelas. The Gondorians didn't even keep any, not valuing the plant at all. As to your reductive reasoning, you're still discounting the fact that if Aragorn hadn't done the healing himself, then he wouldn't have been fulfilling prophecy. Aragorn fulfilled all kinds of prophecies; this one was simply a more public fulfillment that served to signal to all the Gondorians that he was the true king. If your going to continue to insist that the text clearly indicates this, I'd like to see the quote. In my opinion, no such clear indication is made, and a more likely interpretation of it was that Aragorn was destined to fulfill prophecy, not use some kind of magical king-power. [/QUOTE]
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