Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger - When to dip?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7562490" data-attributes="member: 6966824"><p>Apologies for the slight necropost here, but I'm guessing you can't have leveled up too much since starting this thread.</p><p></p><p>I'm playing a very similar character now, in a fairly similar albeit larger party (we have a barbarian, cleric, and a sorlock too, but also a paladin and a lore bard). We used point buy, so my stats aren't nearly as good as yours, and because others have CHA covered I dumped it.</p><p></p><p>Going 2/1 then 2/2 sounds great. Expertise, cunning action, and a big library of utility spells with ritual casting is awesome. Then bladesong vs the 2nd sneak attack die comes down to whether you want to boost offense or defense; I'd probably feel it out through level 3 and see what you think you need more. The spells learned are similar and the slots are identical at that point.</p><p></p><p>I went 3/2 at level 5. You get almost the same spell slots as going 2/3 (arcane recovery being the only difference), and with only 2-3 2nd level slots, if you're planning to cast shadow blade to keep pace with damage you may as well just get the sneak attack die that never runs out and doesn't use concentration, unless you're fighting in dim light a lot and/or have few combats per day, then maybe it's a different story. Plus you get your fancy mage hand, a couple more cantrips, and three more 1st level spells. Compare that to one other 2nd level spell (since shadow blade is almost a spell tax at that point) that competes with shadow blade for slots.</p><p></p><p>At level 6, assuming you went 3/2, you're deciding between an ASI (boosting DEX presumably) and 2nd level spells. The ASI has the advantage of boosting your AC, but with bladesong, cunning action and shield, you're likely more worried about non-AC-targeting ways of getting killed. Offensively, between your familiar and shadow blade's extra damage and advantage in dim light, I'd argue that shadow blade with up to 4 uses a day is superior to a DEX bump, especially if you're aiming for 4/5 at L9 (otherwise you want to think about whether you want to be 5/2 at L7 for uncanny dodge and more sneak attack).</p><p></p><p>Level 7 is an ASI (finally!), which you may as well get on the wizard side since it also comes with spells known as well as 3rd level slots (3d8 shadow blade for those big fights!).</p><p></p><p>Level 8 is either third level spells or another ASI. In my case I really wanted Resilient (CON) at this point, but I had 13 CON and felt strapped for HP. In your case you might rather have 3rd level spells, but I'd also consider Mobile. One of the drawbacks of the multiclass is that you're usually using up your bonus action for the first two rounds starting up bladesong and casting shadow blade; getting that free quasi-disengage helps you more than it would a straight AT.</p><p></p><p>I'm currently at Level 8, 4/4, and it's been great. Between my owl and shadow blade I rarely don't have advantage, and with elven accuracy (I'm full elf, so started with 17 DEX) I'm constantly rolling three times. It's been ages since I've missed an attack. The biggest drawbacks for me at the moment are (1) so much demand on my bonus action from bladesong and shadow blade means I end up stuck in melee more than I'd like, (2) I wish I weren't so dependent on concentration to keep my damage up, since it makes fun spells like web, levitate, and Tasha's harder to fit in, and (3) although I'm usually able to avoid damage entirely, if something does get through it's rough, having delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, and not having a lot of HP. I was nearly taken out by a devourer the other night after I charged in with mirror image, haste and shield spell in hand for a potential AC of 26, but the DM somehow rolled a 4 against mirror image followed by a crit on the attack (she seems to roll crits a lot against me, including twice despite disadvantage... hmm...).</p><p></p><p>I'm certainly happiest when we can get a round to prepare, since then I can cast mirror image and start blade song, letting me jump into melee with shadow blade and some serious defenses up in the first round. The sorlock often will twin haste on me and our barbarian, which is a highly recommended tactic (though I've been hesitant to use it to do the full on readied second sneak attack, since I want to keep my reaction free for shield, or later, uncanny dodge; but a second straight shadow blade attack is still nice).</p><p></p><p>If I were starting at level 8 I think I'd probably be better off at 7/1, with uncanny dodge, evasion, and almost as much at will damage as a third level shadow blade (plus the potential to add a 2nd level shadow blade on top a couple times a day), leaving tanking to the barbarian and the paladin and sticking to booming blade/disengage with some Tasha's or maybe hold person mixed in. But I got to play with 2nd level spells for two levels when I wouldn't have had them otherwise, and I get a broader magic toolbox.</p><p></p><p>I'm currently pretty torn on where to go from here. My original plan was to stick to rogue levels until I get magical ambush, then bring the hypnotic patterns from hiding at level 14 (one level later than a pure AT, but with lots more uses a day). I think I will at least go rogue 5 next for the damage mitigation. But I might grab that 5th wizard level and fear after that to mix things up a bit. I'm pretty sure that I want to be 9/6 at level 15: imposed disadvantage on level 3 debuffs, easily getting in and out of touch range to cast bestow curse with no concentration if using the 5th level slot, maybe even from invisible to be hidden when it's cast, or taking two attacks with a 5th level shadow blade and 5d6 sneak attack. If the campaign continues from there there are a lot of directions to go in with fun possibilities.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Esker, post: 7562490, member: 6966824"] Apologies for the slight necropost here, but I'm guessing you can't have leveled up too much since starting this thread. I'm playing a very similar character now, in a fairly similar albeit larger party (we have a barbarian, cleric, and a sorlock too, but also a paladin and a lore bard). We used point buy, so my stats aren't nearly as good as yours, and because others have CHA covered I dumped it. Going 2/1 then 2/2 sounds great. Expertise, cunning action, and a big library of utility spells with ritual casting is awesome. Then bladesong vs the 2nd sneak attack die comes down to whether you want to boost offense or defense; I'd probably feel it out through level 3 and see what you think you need more. The spells learned are similar and the slots are identical at that point. I went 3/2 at level 5. You get almost the same spell slots as going 2/3 (arcane recovery being the only difference), and with only 2-3 2nd level slots, if you're planning to cast shadow blade to keep pace with damage you may as well just get the sneak attack die that never runs out and doesn't use concentration, unless you're fighting in dim light a lot and/or have few combats per day, then maybe it's a different story. Plus you get your fancy mage hand, a couple more cantrips, and three more 1st level spells. Compare that to one other 2nd level spell (since shadow blade is almost a spell tax at that point) that competes with shadow blade for slots. At level 6, assuming you went 3/2, you're deciding between an ASI (boosting DEX presumably) and 2nd level spells. The ASI has the advantage of boosting your AC, but with bladesong, cunning action and shield, you're likely more worried about non-AC-targeting ways of getting killed. Offensively, between your familiar and shadow blade's extra damage and advantage in dim light, I'd argue that shadow blade with up to 4 uses a day is superior to a DEX bump, especially if you're aiming for 4/5 at L9 (otherwise you want to think about whether you want to be 5/2 at L7 for uncanny dodge and more sneak attack). Level 7 is an ASI (finally!), which you may as well get on the wizard side since it also comes with spells known as well as 3rd level slots (3d8 shadow blade for those big fights!). Level 8 is either third level spells or another ASI. In my case I really wanted Resilient (CON) at this point, but I had 13 CON and felt strapped for HP. In your case you might rather have 3rd level spells, but I'd also consider Mobile. One of the drawbacks of the multiclass is that you're usually using up your bonus action for the first two rounds starting up bladesong and casting shadow blade; getting that free quasi-disengage helps you more than it would a straight AT. I'm currently at Level 8, 4/4, and it's been great. Between my owl and shadow blade I rarely don't have advantage, and with elven accuracy (I'm full elf, so started with 17 DEX) I'm constantly rolling three times. It's been ages since I've missed an attack. The biggest drawbacks for me at the moment are (1) so much demand on my bonus action from bladesong and shadow blade means I end up stuck in melee more than I'd like, (2) I wish I weren't so dependent on concentration to keep my damage up, since it makes fun spells like web, levitate, and Tasha's harder to fit in, and (3) although I'm usually able to avoid damage entirely, if something does get through it's rough, having delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, and not having a lot of HP. I was nearly taken out by a devourer the other night after I charged in with mirror image, haste and shield spell in hand for a potential AC of 26, but the DM somehow rolled a 4 against mirror image followed by a crit on the attack (she seems to roll crits a lot against me, including twice despite disadvantage... hmm...). I'm certainly happiest when we can get a round to prepare, since then I can cast mirror image and start blade song, letting me jump into melee with shadow blade and some serious defenses up in the first round. The sorlock often will twin haste on me and our barbarian, which is a highly recommended tactic (though I've been hesitant to use it to do the full on readied second sneak attack, since I want to keep my reaction free for shield, or later, uncanny dodge; but a second straight shadow blade attack is still nice). If I were starting at level 8 I think I'd probably be better off at 7/1, with uncanny dodge, evasion, and almost as much at will damage as a third level shadow blade (plus the potential to add a 2nd level shadow blade on top a couple times a day), leaving tanking to the barbarian and the paladin and sticking to booming blade/disengage with some Tasha's or maybe hold person mixed in. But I got to play with 2nd level spells for two levels when I wouldn't have had them otherwise, and I get a broader magic toolbox. I'm currently pretty torn on where to go from here. My original plan was to stick to rogue levels until I get magical ambush, then bring the hypnotic patterns from hiding at level 14 (one level later than a pure AT, but with lots more uses a day). I think I will at least go rogue 5 next for the damage mitigation. But I might grab that 5th wizard level and fear after that to mix things up a bit. I'm pretty sure that I want to be 9/6 at level 15: imposed disadvantage on level 3 debuffs, easily getting in and out of touch range to cast bestow curse with no concentration if using the 5th level slot, maybe even from invisible to be hidden when it's cast, or taking two attacks with a 5th level shadow blade and 5d6 sneak attack. If the campaign continues from there there are a lot of directions to go in with fun possibilities. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger - When to dip?
Top