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Character Builds & Optimization
Arcane Trickster / Wizard: Diviner or Bladesinger? Ranged or Melee?
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<blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7493935" data-attributes="member: 6966824"><p>Thanks, Obliza! This is much appreciated!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure I follow all of this calculation... For the bladesinger, assuming both attacks hit and no shadow blade or booming blade, you get 6d6 once from sneak attack, 1d8 per attack for the rapier, and +5 per attack from DEX bonus, for 40 damage without any magic. What's the other +6? </p><p></p><p>At max level the bladesinger is a 12th level caster, so has 2 5th and 1 6th level spell slots per day, which could be used to upcast shadow blade, granting another 2d8 per attack, for a total of 6d6+8d8+10, averaging 67 damage per round (when both attacks hit) for three encounters per day (not factoring in any AoOs that may occur, or the option of an off-hand bonus action attack). Supposing you just used all available spell slots on shadow blade, you could cast it another 6 times upcast to 3rd or 4th level, giving you 58 damage, and 3 more at 2nd level, for 49 (or you could just do a single booming blade attack with your 2nd level shadow blade for 48.5 plus the rider).</p><p></p><p>A single class arcane trickster at 20th level using a single booming blade attack with a 3rd or 4th level shadow blade (four slots per day) does 10d6 + 6d8 + 5 = 67 damage. Same max damage for one more encounter than the multiclass, if they never cast any other 3rd or 4th level spells. They get more cool rogue abilities, but 5 fewer high level spell slots, way fewer spells known, and are less likely to land their sneak attack.</p><p></p><p>A single class bladesinger... is a different animal, since they get to cast up through 9th level spells, and by max level aren't going to be in melee very often.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In terms of control effectiveness, we have to take into account the magical ambush feature. My thinking in delaying INT boosts in favor of Skulker was that since disadvantage on saves is typically worth more than +1 (or even +2) in DC, it made sense to invest in making it easier to hide. Having run some numbers on it, I might have been wrong about that; although hiding certainly <em>is </em>more valuable than +1 DC, it seems like you have to assume that at least 1/3 or so of encounters take place in environments where the skulker can hide but the non-skulker can't for the <em>average</em> effective DC to be higher with skulker than +2 INT, which is probably unrealistic (though certainly <em>in those environments</em>, skulker can be worth as much as +5 DC, and compared to a single class wizard with INT 20, the AT with INT 16 has a leg up on landing control spells <em>any</em> time they can hide, though of course they don't get the high level ones).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The INT bonus to damage is not as valuable as 6d6 in sneak attack, though. Even if they want to spend 7th and higher level spell slots upcasting shadow blade (which would be nuts), they only get an extra 2d8+10=19 per turn between the extra upcast (compared to 5th or 6th level shadow blade) and the INT bonus, vs. 21 per turn from sneak attack. And of course, they get higher level control spells, but if the AT multiclass can hide, they have an easier time landing the lower level ones. The bladesinger can use spell slots to negate damage and cast shield at will, but the AT can halve damage at will, and has cunning action, evasion, and skills for days.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I was viewing elven accuracy as more or less a free feat, since it also bumps my DEX mod (I sacrificed a point of CON to get starting DEX up to 17 since I was planning on taking Resilient CON, so I'd get it "back" later), more than necessarily a build defining choice. My DM so far has not been inclined to attack my owl familiar when it's doing its flyby cheese, so getting advantage has been relatively easy, but we'll see if that lasts. The alternative seems to be trading the starting DEX point for a point of CON and then just taking a straight</p><p>+2 DEX at level 4, which gives me a few more HP up front, but if taking resilient CON then I'm in the same place after I get that feat that I would have been, but without the super-advantage. It seems hard to justify not bumping DEX at the first opportunity, since it buys a rogue so much, and I won't have enough spell slots to do much other than try to sneak attack. Maybe crossbow expert, but then my skill checks, initiative, damage per hit and AC suffer a bit, and I can't use cunning action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I'd love to fit that in, though I don't know if I'd be looking to stick around next to threats to proc AoOs, as opposed to swooping in, attacking, disengaging, and swooping out. I dunno, depends on the rest of the party, I guess. What would you give up for it? Maybe some INT, in the striker build, since saves are less important there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, at least, conditional on not missing out on sneak attack. Which means crossbow expert too... which is two more feats, and no cunning action. Again, what would you sacrifice? I guess in a ranged build that is relegating the save spells to a minor feature you could just leave INT at 16, and take Crossbow Expert, then Elven Accuracy, then Sharpshooter, then Resilient (CON), then +2 DEX.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Esker, post: 7493935, member: 6966824"] Thanks, Obliza! This is much appreciated! Not sure I follow all of this calculation... For the bladesinger, assuming both attacks hit and no shadow blade or booming blade, you get 6d6 once from sneak attack, 1d8 per attack for the rapier, and +5 per attack from DEX bonus, for 40 damage without any magic. What's the other +6? At max level the bladesinger is a 12th level caster, so has 2 5th and 1 6th level spell slots per day, which could be used to upcast shadow blade, granting another 2d8 per attack, for a total of 6d6+8d8+10, averaging 67 damage per round (when both attacks hit) for three encounters per day (not factoring in any AoOs that may occur, or the option of an off-hand bonus action attack). Supposing you just used all available spell slots on shadow blade, you could cast it another 6 times upcast to 3rd or 4th level, giving you 58 damage, and 3 more at 2nd level, for 49 (or you could just do a single booming blade attack with your 2nd level shadow blade for 48.5 plus the rider). A single class arcane trickster at 20th level using a single booming blade attack with a 3rd or 4th level shadow blade (four slots per day) does 10d6 + 6d8 + 5 = 67 damage. Same max damage for one more encounter than the multiclass, if they never cast any other 3rd or 4th level spells. They get more cool rogue abilities, but 5 fewer high level spell slots, way fewer spells known, and are less likely to land their sneak attack. A single class bladesinger... is a different animal, since they get to cast up through 9th level spells, and by max level aren't going to be in melee very often. In terms of control effectiveness, we have to take into account the magical ambush feature. My thinking in delaying INT boosts in favor of Skulker was that since disadvantage on saves is typically worth more than +1 (or even +2) in DC, it made sense to invest in making it easier to hide. Having run some numbers on it, I might have been wrong about that; although hiding certainly [I]is [/I]more valuable than +1 DC, it seems like you have to assume that at least 1/3 or so of encounters take place in environments where the skulker can hide but the non-skulker can't for the [I]average[/I] effective DC to be higher with skulker than +2 INT, which is probably unrealistic (though certainly [I]in those environments[/I], skulker can be worth as much as +5 DC, and compared to a single class wizard with INT 20, the AT with INT 16 has a leg up on landing control spells [I]any[/I] time they can hide, though of course they don't get the high level ones). The INT bonus to damage is not as valuable as 6d6 in sneak attack, though. Even if they want to spend 7th and higher level spell slots upcasting shadow blade (which would be nuts), they only get an extra 2d8+10=19 per turn between the extra upcast (compared to 5th or 6th level shadow blade) and the INT bonus, vs. 21 per turn from sneak attack. And of course, they get higher level control spells, but if the AT multiclass can hide, they have an easier time landing the lower level ones. The bladesinger can use spell slots to negate damage and cast shield at will, but the AT can halve damage at will, and has cunning action, evasion, and skills for days. I was viewing elven accuracy as more or less a free feat, since it also bumps my DEX mod (I sacrificed a point of CON to get starting DEX up to 17 since I was planning on taking Resilient CON, so I'd get it "back" later), more than necessarily a build defining choice. My DM so far has not been inclined to attack my owl familiar when it's doing its flyby cheese, so getting advantage has been relatively easy, but we'll see if that lasts. The alternative seems to be trading the starting DEX point for a point of CON and then just taking a straight +2 DEX at level 4, which gives me a few more HP up front, but if taking resilient CON then I'm in the same place after I get that feat that I would have been, but without the super-advantage. It seems hard to justify not bumping DEX at the first opportunity, since it buys a rogue so much, and I won't have enough spell slots to do much other than try to sneak attack. Maybe crossbow expert, but then my skill checks, initiative, damage per hit and AC suffer a bit, and I can't use cunning action. Yeah, I'd love to fit that in, though I don't know if I'd be looking to stick around next to threats to proc AoOs, as opposed to swooping in, attacking, disengaging, and swooping out. I dunno, depends on the rest of the party, I guess. What would you give up for it? Maybe some INT, in the striker build, since saves are less important there. Yeah, at least, conditional on not missing out on sneak attack. Which means crossbow expert too... which is two more feats, and no cunning action. Again, what would you sacrifice? I guess in a ranged build that is relegating the save spells to a minor feature you could just leave INT at 16, and take Crossbow Expert, then Elven Accuracy, then Sharpshooter, then Resilient (CON), then +2 DEX. [/QUOTE]
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Arcane Trickster / Wizard: Diviner or Bladesinger? Ranged or Melee?
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