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Archdevil Moloch (Mordenkainen's tome of foes preview from Dragon+)
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<blockquote data-quote="Erechel" data-source="post: 7401064" data-attributes="member: 6784868"><p>No. Only bull-headed parties will get crushed. 120 feet of movement don't really make the difference. My 5th-level fighter already can move faster, without any magic items: only a warhorse, and a lvl 1 spell (longstrider), 140 feet. I even use this to become a lightning bruiser (Lance + Horse= Profit! You don't need to disengage, attack and withdraw without even using your bonus action). Stinking cloud can be circumvented by just <em>moving away</em>, no matter how high the DC fo the save is. Not to mention things like <em>gust of wind</em>, <em>dispel magic</em>, or <em>counterspell</em>. It is a nice spell. It is tactical. But gets undone if concentration breaks, or if it is counterspelled, or dispel, or if there is a strong wind. Of course, if the wizard in the lvl 12 party only wants to "Bluhaha! I cast Fireball!" and the paladin does <em>nothing</em> but charge on foot and "attaaaack!!", any type of DM ingenuity will crush them. You can crush them with goblins. Believe me, I've made it. I killed a level 12 druid with volleys of goblins firing arrows... in one round. </p><p></p><p>But if the characters are at least half the smart that you are, and prepare accordingly to the fight (EG gathering <em>holy water</em>, which is unexpensive if you are planning to take down a fiend that raises undead), you are overwhelmed. Half your smart x4= twice your smart. A level 17 party of sufficiently smart players can thwart this monster easily. A level 12 party will have a difficult, but ultimately passable fight, in which luck will have much to say.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A CR 21 monster needs to be an even match to a party, at least, level 20. ESPECIALLY if it is legendary. That's what the CR is for. One level (especially one level up to the MAXIMUM level of the party) should be more than an even fight. And a CR 21 certaintly don't need to be an easy fight for a 20th level party.</p><p></p><p>As a side note, instead of pumping up every skill, I would specialize the fight. The demon should really have a playstyle, a la 4th Ed, and build into that. If it is a caster/controller, make him a GREAT caster controller, not a mediocre one. And that isn't giving him essentialy infinite spell slots. They really don't matter in a 3-4 rounds fight. A spell isn't a fair trade for all its actions: he should have bonus actions, legendary actions <em>and </em> reactions. He is a freaking <em>bosss</em>, and should have a contingency plan for baseline characters. Teleporting as a reaction when he is going to be hit, for example, would be awesome. That would be a great teleporting battle, and a challenge for the characters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Erechel, post: 7401064, member: 6784868"] No. Only bull-headed parties will get crushed. 120 feet of movement don't really make the difference. My 5th-level fighter already can move faster, without any magic items: only a warhorse, and a lvl 1 spell (longstrider), 140 feet. I even use this to become a lightning bruiser (Lance + Horse= Profit! You don't need to disengage, attack and withdraw without even using your bonus action). Stinking cloud can be circumvented by just [I]moving away[/I], no matter how high the DC fo the save is. Not to mention things like [I]gust of wind[/I], [I]dispel magic[/I], or [I]counterspell[/I]. It is a nice spell. It is tactical. But gets undone if concentration breaks, or if it is counterspelled, or dispel, or if there is a strong wind. Of course, if the wizard in the lvl 12 party only wants to "Bluhaha! I cast Fireball!" and the paladin does [I]nothing[/I] but charge on foot and "attaaaack!!", any type of DM ingenuity will crush them. You can crush them with goblins. Believe me, I've made it. I killed a level 12 druid with volleys of goblins firing arrows... in one round. But if the characters are at least half the smart that you are, and prepare accordingly to the fight (EG gathering [I]holy water[/I], which is unexpensive if you are planning to take down a fiend that raises undead), you are overwhelmed. Half your smart x4= twice your smart. A level 17 party of sufficiently smart players can thwart this monster easily. A level 12 party will have a difficult, but ultimately passable fight, in which luck will have much to say. A CR 21 monster needs to be an even match to a party, at least, level 20. ESPECIALLY if it is legendary. That's what the CR is for. One level (especially one level up to the MAXIMUM level of the party) should be more than an even fight. And a CR 21 certaintly don't need to be an easy fight for a 20th level party. As a side note, instead of pumping up every skill, I would specialize the fight. The demon should really have a playstyle, a la 4th Ed, and build into that. If it is a caster/controller, make him a GREAT caster controller, not a mediocre one. And that isn't giving him essentialy infinite spell slots. They really don't matter in a 3-4 rounds fight. A spell isn't a fair trade for all its actions: he should have bonus actions, legendary actions [I]and [/I] reactions. He is a freaking [I]bosss[/I], and should have a contingency plan for baseline characters. Teleporting as a reaction when he is going to be hit, for example, would be awesome. That would be a great teleporting battle, and a challenge for the characters. [/QUOTE]
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