Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7486523" data-attributes="member: 6880599">1. Dagger is 1d4+3 dex on a starting character is average 5.5 damage and Produce Flame at 1d8 is average 4.5. 1 points will add up but it is comparable.     Shortbow is 1d6+3 dex on a starting character is average 6.5 damage and Produce Flame at 1d8 is average 4.5. 2 points will add up but its comparable.    I said comparable not better not even exactly the same. They are in fact, pretty close. 2. Nether Dagger or Shortbow scale on their own. At character level 5 it out classing them at 2d8 averaging 9 damage and will continue to go up in damage. EVEN if they take the First to ASI to increase their damages bey +2 they will still only be comparable. In fact even a 1d8 longbow with +5 dex modifier is only 9.5 and would still be comparable damage until level 11, but I would agree that until lvl 5 it having 1d8 +3 and averaging 7.5 is to a point of superior damage that matters at lower levels (which is why I did not include longbow or Heavy Crossbow in previous statements)3. No your naturally going to want harp on Class features of the melee classes like Rogues backstab, Fighters extra attacks, and monks martial arts dice HOWEVER, if you do so you also have to compare the class feature of Druids Full casting ability since that is what they got in trade and comparing any druid being able cast Blight at 8d8+1d8 per spell slot above 4, count spells slots and comparing the damage of those classes is not the same thing as looking at the fall back cantrip of a class vs an alternate weapon anyone might take as a standard of comparison. 4. I mentioned range is not largely being a factor in that 30ft+ all allow hit and run (move 15ft into the edge of 30ft, cast the spell, move 15ft back so your 45 foot away every turn in a game averaging 30ft movement, where 20ft range puts you at 35 in range of polearms and slightly faster enemies making it the most significant range jump for all ranged weapons) with a currant level of impunity. In close quarters, longer range is not available or a factor and close quarters are common. These together mean while useful having at least 30ft of range is huge deal and Produce Flame/Thorn whip both have that.Bear was just a place holder animal off the cuff but ALL Druids do get access to Black bear at level 4.My point here was that they ALL do get Wild Shape and have the ability to change into forms that both have ok AC and take HP damage that actually doesn't take away from the character HP. It can be healed back if they don't lose the form making at times sustainable for a while. On top of that while it does take an action to use it does not take a very valuable spell slot like most other caster defenses, having its own resource pool. This is a very strong survival ability other full casters do not have. Sure, they have other things but it out powers warlocks action to cast Armor of Aythis by around twice the hit point generally. Shield is the best one but eats a spell slot, reaction, and has 0 chance of lasting multiple turns.  Chill touch and Ray of frost both have some specific tactical applications which could give them a leg up. If your fighting a troll from a high cliff or if your getting your buts handed to you and you need to slow opponents while you run away. Generally speaking those difference (while they do exist) don't come up much. I am currently playing a Warlock and dropped the Lance of Lethargy and Repelling blast because they ether didn't impact fights in a meaningful way or they annoyed melee fighters who wanted the enemies running around to take attacks of opportunity and/or would have matched there speed and killed the enemy anyway.I will say their has been a few times Chill touch has been invaluable for stopping regenerations on vampires, trolls, and plant monsters. We did have radiant damage for the vampires, fire for the trolls, but the one regenerating plant would have gone bad if we didn't have chill touch (it actually didn't go well with it, we lost a PC.) I would say thought this has happened 1 time in 3 campaigns I have played with my current group that it REALLY made a difference. On the other hand, when I played a druid on the first campaign, I used produce flame all the time!! I wouldn't say one is better than the other. They defiantly have their uses. I know your thinking produce flame has no combat benefit other than the 1d8 scaling fire damage, but our Rogue Thief with Fast hands and bunch of oil bottles was pretty sure anything with the word "fire" in the name was beneficial to combat. Since this was player setup we control and not dependent on GM monster choices or enemy movement decisions I might argue in the right hands Produce Flame can be one of the most powerful cantrips but ... it will never be more powerful than Flamebolt in combat unless your just out of other light sources and non of your group has Darkvision. I was a tie fling Druid, so I did. Same damage spell, but was in the fight so range superiority of Chill touch was largely irrelevant which would make them break even however, the player had generally better lines of sight due to proximity and was able to move to shoot behind cover giving him a better chance of hit (+2 AC 1/3 or +5 AC 1/2 cover which could be even again with spell sniper feat but didn't have it) and was able choose lower AC targets more often playing peek a boo attacking allies behind full cover or around corners on the opposite side of the fight. Lets keep in mind that long range is usually a defense when the enemy is attacking your party. If your part of the party its possible to have superior offense. The only time when superior range attack gets to be more offensive is on the enemies first turns coming into combat across open areas, when enemies attempt to flee across open areas, or when fighting extreme range enemies in large open area. Generally my group tries to avoid just standing in large open area when being attack or attacking so that melee aren't exposed to needless damage trying to get in a position to fight enemies. No caster would be foolish for having high Constitution due concentration saves, so having high HP for your class is not un heard of or a special build. Druids don't need a scimitar because Shillelagh turn their arcane focus staff into a 1d8+wis weapon also Thorn whip is scaling melee damage using wisdom which makes any melee weapon on the table a week choice for them. Flameblade is a druid spell so sure, if you want talk about how they have good melee damage options not as a bear. So they have good reason an capability for melee HP and damage. Your right about 'generally' lower AC and damage avoidance than your typical Rogue/Fighter/Monk...so its good thing the get all those really powerful healing spells (including some nice AoE heals) and enough spell slots to heal them and their friends while fighting…..They can make at will ranged attacks with produce flame, at will ranged melee with thorn whip, and at will 5th AoE when being swarmed in melee with Thunderwave. Again, your only undeniable argument is that its not as good as Firebolt doing 1d10 scaling damage at 120ft able to light things on fire but its not like that is really a need or requirement for druid's to be capable of decent ranged damage since … you know they are full casters with a lot more spells then just their cantrip and a wizard could argue the want a ranged melee spell cantrip like thorn whip and cool flaming hand light instead of just a plain old light spell but I don't see any point here that really says Druids are suffering and it could only be fixed by giving them a Flame bolt equivalent.</blockquote>

Verification