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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5625649" data-attributes="member: 35909">I'm not joking.  Until level 11, your only options are disarm, feint, and sunder.  Disarm is probably the best, though of limited use.  Feint is useless without multiclassing, both to get SA and to actually have Bluff as a class skill.  It's also its own action, whether you have Improved Feint or not.  Giving up your full attack action when you don't have to as an archer = bad.  Sunder I just plain don't like.  It doesn't outright destroy treasure anymore if you just want to use sunder to give some small debuffs out, but it can still mess with your treasure haul if the item you "break" has a higher CL than the party.  In all cases, the -4 CMB penalty seems harsh, considering a melee guy enlarged with a reach weapon can do his thing up to 20 ft away (as opposed to your 30 ft), no problemo.  Add in that your str is almost certainly much lower than a melee guy's and...yeah.At level 11, you FINALLY get the good stuff.  Trip and bull rush both help you keep your distance from an enemy and give you viable battlefield control options.  Whether it's worth suddenly going out and spending your (now high level) feat slots on a completely worthless feat (Power Attack or Combat Expertise) just to be able to spend another 2 feats on Imp/Greater Trip/Bull Rush is anyone's guess.  And yes, again, the grapple option is useless.  The arrow has 1 hp and 5 hardness.  You spend an attack action to use it, the enemy spends an attack action and destroys it.  Except you have a fair failure chance, he's almost guaranteed to suceed in destroying that arrow.  I guess it could screw up a mage, but so does shooting them up for lots of damage.I'd rather have armor training.EDIT: To make matters worse, Safe Shot is a curse.  At best, it's delaying your Point Blank Master feat till level 6 (as a bonus feat, since those are by RAW the only ones you can retrain) when any other Fighter could have it at level 5.  At worse, someone who is newer to character building sees it at level 9 and figures its worthless to get the feat, and spends 4 levels needlessly getting AoO'd for shooting his bow.  Actually, worse case scenario, the player takes PBM at level 5 and from level 9+, is stuck forever with a worthless feat...</blockquote>

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