Archery - Not cover nor engaged penalty

[Rashak Mani]

Our group was ambushed by a monster up a mountain slope.. only the group Barbarian managed to climb to meet the monster face to face...

Well being an evil group... the guys down below didnt stop shooting arrows up !!

The rules say that if someone is in front of target, the target gets +4 cover and if you miss by 1 to 4 you hit cover. If someone is engaged in combat you have -4 penalty in order not to hit your "ally". Now the guys shooting didnt give a sh*t about hitting the Barbarian !! The barbarian was to the side of the monster ... so he wasnt giving any cover...

How do you rule in this situation ? By the rules the Bowmen should have zero penalty... yet how do you calculate the chance to hit the ally when he isnt provinding cover ?

 

[Mordekai]

I thought the rule was -4 to hit (without Precise Shot) when the foe is "engaged in melee," not, "when engaged in melee with an ally." This is more due to the erratic movement of a person when they are fighting with someone than care to avoid hitting another target.

Imagine an encounter among three mutually hostile people, with two of the three engaged in melee and the third firing at either of the targets. Either target would present the same -4 to hit, even though the archer doesn't care which he hits.

Just my opinion, mind you.

 

[Metheus]

My understanding is that your party is still trying to hit the monser and not just firing arrows up a hill. If so, then the archers would get the -4 penalty for firing into combat. Its not that you get a penalty for caring about hitting a party member, its that you get a penalty for trying to hit a target that is engaged in all that fighting entails with someone else, circling, thrusting, being moved around.
If you were to just fire arrows up the hill, then I'd give you no penalty, but you have a 33% chance of hitting either target and a 33% chance of hitting nothing. (this part would be a house rule or something, I doubt its official)

 

[Rashak Mani]

If I followed your logic then anyone should be able to get a +4 AC bonus from jumping up and down in order to avoid arrows... and that is just not the case... Players Hand book says:

" ..you suffer a -4 penalty on your attack roll because you have to aim carefully to avoid hitting your ally."

 

[Umbran]

If you don't aim carefully to avoid hitting your ally, you are less likely to hit your actual target. Arrows that hit the barbarian aren't hitting the target, are they? How much you care about hitting him doesn't make it make it more likely to hit the actual target.

In small group combat, you don't shoot a bow "up there, so I hit something.". You must choose a very particular target. If something keeps getting in the way (like a big, raging barbarian), you will miss the target more often.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Now how do I put this "getting in the way" in game terms ? He´s not giving cover (+4AC) and we weren´t trying to avoid hitting him (-4 attack)....

 

[Rashak Mani]

A possible "house rule" could be if the guys misses by 2 he hits the ally... but that seems very good compared to the -4 rule

 

[Storm Raven]

Now how do I put this "getting in the way" in game terms ? He´s not giving cover (+4AC) and we weren´t trying to avoid hitting him (-4 attack)....

By fighting the guy you are trying to hit. They are moving about, back and forth just enough to throw off you aim. As the barbarian lunges in to make an attack, his arm gets in front of where you are aiming for a moment, throwing off your shot. When the opponent swings at the barbarian, the barbarian throws his shield in front of the attack, by the motion interposes the shield between the archer and his target for a second, throwing off his aim again.

The barbaian isn't providing "cover", but the constant motion and back and forth of melee combat makes it harder to hit the opponent he is engaged with. You may very well hit the barbarian, and have to carefully place your shot to hit your actual target, even if you don't care whether or not you hit the barbarian.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I followed your logic then anyone should be able to get a +4 AC bonus from jumping up and down in order to avoid arrows... and that is just not the case...

Sure it is - it's exactly the case

PHB p127 - Total Defense.

-Hyp.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

You are making it more complicated than it really is.

Use the -4 to hit. It's not there because players are good and don't want to hit their allies, it's there because they are trying to hit an rerratic target.

And leave the miss by 1-4 means hit the cover part too.

The part about them being evil and not caring if they hit their friend doesn't make any difference at all in this situation.

--Non-Evil Spikey