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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tx7321" data-source="post: 3217488" data-attributes="member: 43146">Raven: "Personally, I think the "classes are archetypes" argument used in relation of 1e and 2e AD&D is very much overblown. The main problem with the argument (as I see it) is that the classes as written don't seem to fit any literary archetypes at all."The 5 basic archetypes are broad, not just specific jobs, careers or roles, but they all fit into that general basket due to their boundaries. These are universal templates as old as man.  They also are studied in psychology, anthropology, history, and many other fields and don't just occur in literature.  Carl Jung did allot of interesting studies into archetypes. Archetypes come from the roles that we (all humans) instinctively recognize (mother, father, child, teacher, healer).  You can go to the deepest back-jungle H/G nomadic tribe, to the modern city and see the same basic archetypes.     Archetype shouldn't be confused with personality.  Some personalities are better suited for different archetypes (or roles) but each category has examples of all the personalities in it.  AD&D uses the alignment system to give a basic template to follow (you have CE Magicians, just as you have LG...some would argue the lawful is probably better suited for being a magician.  In "real life" there are many personality category systems. The most popular in the West is probably Myers-Briggs.   Many of you have undoubtedly taken this test for school or work.  If you haven't take this test:  <a href="http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes3.asp" target="_blank">http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes3.asp</a>  <a href="http://and there are more detailed write ups here. http://www.personalitypage.com/home.html" target="_blank"> and there are more detailed write ups here. http://www.personalitypage.com/home.html</a>. Anyhow, authors use archetypes to make things simple.  The more defined they are (expressed through limits) the more identifiable.  Usually archetypes are used to address human problems and conflicts we all experience (like growing up).  These conflicting archetypes within individuals are often the basis for characters in books and movies.  In AD&D I think the focus was to get on an adventure and do stuff asap.  It was a less introspective game, and more interested in adventure.  Therefore, quick and easy identification of your role is very useful in this "action oriented" game.  Perhaps 3E has broken down the barriers between the classes, to reflect a more intellectual or inward looking game.  Its less about the "group" and more about the individuals within it.  Thats probably why customization is the focus.  And probably why they changed the rules to put the rules into the hands of the players (now responsible for their highly customized characters).   So perhaps in some since the role of archetype has been changed in 3E from one of "tool to get into action" where the player keeps his personality and shoves it into a PC (as you see in AD&D 1E), to one of "tool to define yourself" where the player builds and streamlines his character and then attempts to become it.  I think this may come directly from 2E which was strongly into character development...but taken one step further by removing the barriers to self expression (ie. a fighter being able to take elements of being a thief, or a MU being able to take elements of being a fighter).  Fascinating stuff.</blockquote>

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