Are all monsters created equal?

[Plane Sailing]

Tonight I've run several encounters in my campaign, and the difficulty of the fights hasn't seemed to match the xp rewards on offer in some cases.

One of the most serious differences was comparing a fight involving wights (level 5 skirmishers, 200xp) and one involving wraiths (level 5 lurkers, 200xp each). The wraiths were a far worse fight than the wights were, thanks to their improved mobility and their regeneration.

Similarly a gelationous cube (level 5 elite brute, 400xp) was far, far nastier than an elite Duergar Theurge (level 5 elite controller, 400xp).

At first guess I think that regeneration and sources of ongoing damage seem to be undervalued when estimating the basic xp value of a monster.

Have you come across any examples of monsters which are supposed to be the same xp reward but in practice seem very different in difficulty?

Cheers

 

[James McMurray]

What's the party makeup. Monsters that are fairly close to one another in power can be vastly different depending on the PCs' builds.

 

[Saeviomagy]

What's the party makeup. Monsters that are fairly close to one another in power can be vastly different depending on the PCs' builds.

And tactics as well: as an example, regeneration has little to no effect if the PCs can dish out damage and coordinate to do it all to a single target in a round.

Conversely if they all focus on AOE damage, then the effects of regeneration will be multiplied.

 

[Rechan]

Actually, I think wights are particularly nasty given that they can eat up healing surges. Even if you defeat them, you might have lost 2-3 healing surges per person, which is particularly harsh.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Also, if the monster make up is entirely 1 type of "role", it's not going to be as useful as a mix of roles. Skirmishers and Lurkers also depend a lot on being able to get in and get out, or the ability to get combat advantage, etc. Having some brutes or soldiers around can help quite a bit in making sure they can do their thing.

 

[Asmor]

At first guess I think that regeneration and sources of ongoing damage seem to be undervalued when estimating the basic xp value of a monster.

They're not undervalued, they're un-valued.

A monster's exp is determined solely by its level and status (solo, elite, normal or minion). Nothing else affects the exp of the monster, at all.

Yes, this does mean that two monsters with the same exp will rarely be balanced against each other. More so than many other things, experience points are a gross abstraction.

It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Who's to say that a monster should be worth 500 xp, 600 xp, or 700 xp? How do you quantify that difference in experience? It's simply not possible.

 

[Mouseferatu]

They're not undervalued, they're un-valued.

True--in terms of XP.

They are taken into account elsewhere. (For instance, creatures with regeneration have fewer starting HP than other creatures of their level.) But it's true that they don't have any direct bearing on XP or level.

 

[Asmor]

True--in terms of XP.

They are taken into account elsewhere. (For instance, creatures with regeneration have fewer starting HP than other creatures of their level.) But it's true that they don't have any direct bearing on XP or level.

Really? I've never noticed that (though I've also yet to use anything with regeneration). Actually, the only time I've noticed abnormal hp was the Skull lord, which has 40 hp but IIRC should have had somewhere in the neighborhood of 110 hp. When you actually look at him, though, he has a minimum of 120 hp (and quite likely more, since every 40 points he resets, so any excess damage would be wasted).

Is there a rule I missed about this, or is it just an unwritten rule?

 

[Rechan]

Really? I've never noticed that (though I've also yet to use anything with regeneration). Actually, the only time I've noticed abnormal hp was the Skull lord, which has 40 hp but IIRC should have had somewhere in the neighborhood of 110 hp. When you actually look at him, though, he has a minimum of 120 hp (and quite likely more, since every 40 points he resets, so any excess damage would be wasted).

Is there a rule I missed about this, or is it just an unwritten rule?

Unwritten rule.

Also, monsters with insubstantial also have fewer HP (because Insubstantial basically means it has double HP, since it's taking half damage from all attacks).

 

[Rechan]

Another thing that can effect the worth of a monster is terrain and surrounding circumstances.

A gelatinous cube in a 10' corridor is so much nastier than a gelatinous cube in a wide open space. Artillery monsters that can take cover, or have a defensive line are better than just a battle with artillery on an open field. Monsters or traps that do area damage, with monsters that are immune to those area effects, do much better. Flying monsters are more effective when they can avoid ground hazards (or have room to maneuver).

Also, monsters that have complimentary abilities are much more dangerous than monsters that don't have them. My favorite example is any monster that can cause immobilization + a monster that does extra damage to immobilized foes (Chillborn zombies, Ghouls). The same with dazing/knocking prone abilities + monsters with combat advantage.

Also, if the monster make up is entirely 1 type of "role", it's not going to be as useful as a mix of roles. Skirmishers and Lurkers also depend a lot on being able to get in and get out, or the ability to get combat advantage, etc. Having some brutes or soldiers around can help quite a bit in making sure they can do their thing.

This is truth.

I've had a fight made of only lurkers, and the PCs tore through them before they got to do their thang.

I just ran a fight that had two large brutes, and two skirmishers. The two defenders were so busy beating on the brutes (because as a standard action, they got two attacks), that they neglected the skirmishers bouncing around the field and attacking the squishies. It was also very amusing because I had two level 8s, an level 9, and a level 4 monster; the level 4 (a fey panther) did a whole lot of carnage because everyone was so concerned with the bigger threats that they left it to its own devices (until the warlock unloaded on it).