Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ondath" data-source="post: 9076238" data-attributes="member: 7031770"><p>This is a discussion I wanted to spin off from <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/percussion-and-string-art-specialties-need-help.698870/" target="_blank">the thread about the Percussion and String specialties</a>, mostly following [USER=7034129]@steels12[/USER]'s comment there:</p><p></p><p></p><p>So after I read his comment, I checked the Bard abilities on my Adventurer's Guide, and I have to admit that the Bard seems to get a series of powers that seem okay at first glance, but when they're brought together they become really powerful.</p><p></p><p>I really like hymns as an idea. They give some powerful stuff, but that's balanced by their limitations: They require concentration, they use up a Bardic Inspiration, they only target one person at a time, and they have a range of 60 feet. But from an early level, all of these restrictions get progressively removed:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Battle Hymn Focus: </strong>From 4th level onwards, they either no longer require concentration (which means they can be used alongside powerful buff spells), or they can affect 4/5 <em>additional</em> people (assuming you have a Bard with a +4/+5 CHA). This makes some hymn options insanely powerful (Bastions of Justice essentially becomes a stronger Aura of Resistance, Overbearing Rhythm means the enemies can't attack anyone without getting disadvantage).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Font of Inspiration:</strong> The earlier buffs could be acceptable if the Hymns remained a rare resource to use. But Bardic Inspiration recharging on Short Rests means the Bard will get (assuming they take 2 Short Rests each day) 12 uses of Bardic Inspiration/Hymns at Level 5, and this will cap out to 15 uses at Level 8. Assuming that an average combat takes 3 rounds and the Bard uses their Bardic Inspiration/Hymn every round in every combat, that still means they can use the Hymns to their maximum extent for <strong>five combats</strong>. That's every single combat a party is supposed to face at Tier 2, leaves out only one combat at Tier 3 and 37% of all combats at Tier 4. So, as steels12 put it, the Bard can nova with their Hymns all day, every day.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Battle Hymn Specialisation:</strong> The last way of balancing the Hymns was its (sort of) limited range, since 30 feet meant people who were attacking from a distance (i.e., distant enough to require more than 1 Round of movement in combat to reach while still using your action) could not benefit from them. But increasing the Hymn range to 60 feet means that practically everyone in combat can always benefit from Hymns.</li> </ul><p>So all of this is making me wonder: Was this foreseen during the playtest? Is this the Bard's expected power level, or did these features create a powerful synergy that the designers weren't expecting? I'll start a Level Up campaign soon and a player was looking forward to play a Bard, but (having suffered once from overly-tuned classes thanks to the Blood Hunter) now I'm hesitant to let them play the Bard RAW. I'd love to have the input of either people who have run A5E games and have experience dealing with the Bard, or of the designers to see what they think!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ondath, post: 9076238, member: 7031770"] This is a discussion I wanted to spin off from [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/percussion-and-string-art-specialties-need-help.698870/']the thread about the Percussion and String specialties[/URL], mostly following [USER=7034129]@steels12[/USER]'s comment there: So after I read his comment, I checked the Bard abilities on my Adventurer's Guide, and I have to admit that the Bard seems to get a series of powers that seem okay at first glance, but when they're brought together they become really powerful. I really like hymns as an idea. They give some powerful stuff, but that's balanced by their limitations: They require concentration, they use up a Bardic Inspiration, they only target one person at a time, and they have a range of 60 feet. But from an early level, all of these restrictions get progressively removed: [LIST] [*][B]Battle Hymn Focus: [/B]From 4th level onwards, they either no longer require concentration (which means they can be used alongside powerful buff spells), or they can affect 4/5 [I]additional[/I] people (assuming you have a Bard with a +4/+5 CHA). This makes some hymn options insanely powerful (Bastions of Justice essentially becomes a stronger Aura of Resistance, Overbearing Rhythm means the enemies can't attack anyone without getting disadvantage). [*][B]Font of Inspiration:[/B] The earlier buffs could be acceptable if the Hymns remained a rare resource to use. But Bardic Inspiration recharging on Short Rests means the Bard will get (assuming they take 2 Short Rests each day) 12 uses of Bardic Inspiration/Hymns at Level 5, and this will cap out to 15 uses at Level 8. Assuming that an average combat takes 3 rounds and the Bard uses their Bardic Inspiration/Hymn every round in every combat, that still means they can use the Hymns to their maximum extent for [B]five combats[/B]. That's every single combat a party is supposed to face at Tier 2, leaves out only one combat at Tier 3 and 37% of all combats at Tier 4. So, as steels12 put it, the Bard can nova with their Hymns all day, every day. [*][B]Battle Hymn Specialisation:[/B] The last way of balancing the Hymns was its (sort of) limited range, since 30 feet meant people who were attacking from a distance (i.e., distant enough to require more than 1 Round of movement in combat to reach while still using your action) could not benefit from them. But increasing the Hymn range to 60 feet means that practically everyone in combat can always benefit from Hymns. [/LIST] So all of this is making me wonder: Was this foreseen during the playtest? Is this the Bard's expected power level, or did these features create a powerful synergy that the designers weren't expecting? I'll start a Level Up campaign soon and a player was looking forward to play a Bard, but (having suffered once from overly-tuned classes thanks to the Blood Hunter) now I'm hesitant to let them play the Bard RAW. I'd love to have the input of either people who have run A5E games and have experience dealing with the Bard, or of the designers to see what they think! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
Top