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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 385498" data-attributes="member: 1139">Ok, I should point out that these observations are mostly made for big parties (6-8 people).  A big party has more chances to complement each other's abilities with spells and items.  A party with two powerful melee fighters, two divine casters, two arcane casters, a rogue and one more character (probably a Cleric- everyone loves Clerics) has a huge advantage in terms of buff spells.  They can have a lot of different spellcaster types and still get the buff spells that they need cast.Basilisk- you've now used an extra feat from Quicken.  In addition, buff spells are effective without requiring any feats, although it is harder to have them on exactly when you want them.  However, the Iconic Wizard can do all of my example as a 12th level caster.  No magic items, or even non-PH feats and races.Save or Die spells really are the best way to counter characters with buff spells, since the buff spells don't really help in avoiding them.  Fighter-types, on the other hand, need buff spells to have any chance against buffed opponents.  A lot of enemies with SR and high saves (for example, a Mature Adult Red Dragon with say, 50k well spent on items) are very hard to defeat with magic unless you use Greater Spell Focus/Penetration, (Spellcasting) Prodigy Grey Elven Archmage-Incantatrix-Red Wizard types.  Thus, most casters are better off using buff spells to give people a chance in melee.Forrester's thread (the one Darkness posted a link to) shows that effect quite clearly, with magic items instead of buff spells.  Divine Power, the haste spells, Tenser's, Improved Invisibility/Displacement (depending on whether or not you're a rogue and what type of enemy you're facing) and Stoneskin (until the very high levels) are the only PH buff spells that I can really see being used proactively in combat most of the time.  Dispels hurt a lot more when you use combat actions to cast those buff spells.  Again, I don't know the class books very well.  Also, the point about slow is new.  I'm not sure, but my last campaign might have played it as a Will save to avoid having your haste countered (which explains why I didn't see Slow used very often).  Slow is a "silver bullet" that makes Haste much easier to get rid of than most spells should be.  The fact that Slow is there doesn't make Haste balanced- it just results in metagaming within the game.</blockquote>

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