Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 385645" data-attributes="member: 3146">From the looks of things, you're also dealing with high level parties who know what's coming for them. After all, 3rd and 4th level spell slots only cease to become a scarce commodity around 10th level and higher.In Living Greyhawk scenarios (which usually featured 6 characters in the Pale--which was where I lived until recently), spells were scarce enought that even with three single classed clerics, one multiclassed cleric, and a wizard in the party of six with an average party level of 7 spell slots for buffing spells were still a scarce commodity. Consequently, characters were never universally buffed for all encounters during a single day.Of course, these were all characters who had a few of their spells used for things like hold person, remove paralysis, glitterdust, and flaming sphere as well as bull's strength and endurance. If the party is willing to forgoe all other magical support, then buffs may be more available at lower levels (although I suspect that the party as a whole will be less effective). The only time I've seen an entire party with buff spells up was when there was a 5th level sorceror with Cat's Grace and Acid Arrow playing. The entire party benefitted from Cat's Grace that adventure (since Acid arrow is less efficient than magic missile at level 5).Not really. You need Persistent Spell in order to have your shield spell up 24/7. Persistent spell comes from Tome and Blood.The save or die and area effect spells are effective without feats as well--they just need to be targetted more carefully as characters with strong saves will probably resist them.Anyway, it's foolish to compare spell choices a priori as if they floated around in the minds of characters who didn't have feats. Characters will select feats that complement their abilities. The buffing wizard will probably take extend spell, persistent spell, and possibly martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus (so that he can use his greatsword in Annis form before level 11 (when he can cast Tenser's Transformation). A blaster wizard will take Spell focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Quicken Spell. Either way, both wizards still have feats left for other things.You're right that save or die spells are very effective against buffed characters. So are spells like Greater Dispelling (which is a very efficient use of the round since players usually try to set themselves up so that they can act efficiently next round and calculate risks based upon their buffed state. If a Greater Dispelling strips the fighter's haste, bull's strength, Cat's Grace, Magic Vestment, Displacement, and Greater Magic Weapon, not only is the fighter not in a position to take down the opponent he's facing with a full attack and partial charge another opponent (since he's no longer hasted) but he is also much more likely to be pounded into the earth by an opponent he supposed wouldn't be able to hit him. (At moderate to high levels, characters can often die in a single round if a monster hits on all attacks and rolls well for damage).On the other hand, buff spells aren't the only way to deal with foes that have good saves and DR. Summoning spells can be effective against them. Also by 12th level, characters focussed on blasting can be expected to have at least spell focus and spell penetration so, with a bit of luck they can effect those creatures as well. Spell resistance and saves are much more effective against spellcasters who aren't designed to deal with them than against spellcasters who are.I disagree for reasons written earlier. Dispels hurt even more when they get the whole list (or even a large part of the list) of precast buff spells. The wizard in your example will be in real trouble if a greater dispelling or anti-magic field drops his haste, polymorph self, tenser's transformation, and shield (and that's only about half of his active buff spells) when he's going toe to toe with a fire giant fighter. Unless the wizard's next action was before the fire giant's, odds are good that the wizard wouldn't live to see his next round.As for only particular spells being in combat buff spells, that's only true at high levels (12+ and even then, protection from arrows and shield belong on that list--everybody won't have persistent spell) and still assumes that the party spends a large chunk of its available spell resources on extended buffing spells. At lower levels, spell resources don't permit 24/7 buffing so players have to make educated guesses as to when combat is likely to occur if they wish to avoid casting their bull's strengths, etc during combat.</blockquote>

Verification