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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5284596" data-attributes="member: 11300">When I wrote that last night, I was feeling particularly grumpy and so I think I was trying to offend everyone. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I think we're on the same page here. Generally what I'm saying is that at high levels, when the PCs wish to accomplish something, they can, and generally will in a single encounter (the classic 15-minute workday by result, not by choice through lack of resources). It's not a problem because they are generally investigating or performing minor magics to get to that point - which uses up a minimum of resources. But when the group decides to act, either they are "winning", or they are losing and bug out.But there is a kind of "final" encounter when the NPC in question is defeated/converted. It is the story of such that keeps the game going but eventually and purposefully there will be resolutions to such things. When the PCs decide to act, the result will be swift, one way or the other.True but a single creature might be able to get through about 1 or 2 of the protective layers that the high level wizard in question has (of about 5 typically plus the others they bring in reacting to stuff: Mind Blank, Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Moment of Prescience and Mirror Image (Quickened or not) bringing in Protection from Energy or Stoneskin as suits or even antimagic as suits. However, to get through and be able to kill the wizard, you have to program it. Now for the big campaign boss, he might know the mage in question well enough to through the right combination of stuff but even then, time stop or wish if they have to can basically nullify this.They don't call all of them but they control almost all of them. Again from my experience, they have too many resources at their command. Getting the opportunity to strip away those resources only happens if I the DM program it (which as I said is not fair on the players). Again I put forward that finding the sweetspot at high levels to challenge the party (rather than individuals in the party) is incredibly hit and miss, enough for me to believe that no sweetspot exists in that circumstance.Agree totally with this. Things like greater mirror image and the orb spells were such a ridiculously bad idea it was not funny. I still counter though that much of the abusable material in the core is still there. Enough that you find yourself planning around what the wizard can do more so than any of the other characters.The wizard has their defences to make them "unkillable". You as the DM know how to get around this. You can contrive (or as I mentioned previously program) their death by getting through these defences by creating the exact set of circumstances to get in the killing shot/spell/hit. It is not a case of outsmarting - the path is there to be taken if you so wish. It is a case of whether you wish to "destroy" a character or not. Otherwise, you play it fair, chip away a couple of defences, maybe scare them with an antimagic aura but in the end, their defences will hold. Again, it is not a case of outsmarting, it is a case of gumption.That's OK she can die and be resurrected. Or if they try to hide her soul somewhere, they have a neat investigation before eventually saving her (such as bargaining with Asmodeus or whatever). Generally though, nothing can happen in the game that cannot be erased or fixed or remedied. Otherwise the PCs just simply have to say so be it. But this is the fun of the game at that level.And this way is the downward spiral. Either PCs get their arses handed to them and bug out and res up, or the BBEG bites the bullet big time and the PCs get his truckload of goodies raising the stakes ever more so the next time around you choose to attempt to challenge the party.By the time the PCs have ready access to Plane Shift and Greater Teleport, the game has completely changed. The world as it was still exists. It is just what challenges the PCs drastically changes. Now it is more about what is unknown and making it known. Once something is "known", it will be swiftly dealt with or not. Designing high level adventures is much more about the story than about the usually all-to-swift-resolution by combat. High level spells determine the when and the where, not the DM trying to keep to the same adventure style from levels 1 to 20+.All of this is of course my experience which is just as valid as everyone elses. Sorry for the agressive original post but as of yet, I can see no way around this but to drastically alter the available spell selections for high level wizards or to limit the number of spells that a wizard may have active at any one point in time. I maintain though that high level play and DMing is centred around what the high level well played wizard has or does.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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