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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5286104" data-attributes="member: 11300">Sure it does but imagine crafting a scenario for a group with a powerful wizard skillfully played and then running through the same scenario but with a powerful sorcerer instead. Now Pathfinder has done an excellent job in bringing the sorcerer more into line power-wise with the wizard but for the purposes of this example, they do not have the extreme versatility of the wizard. With the wizard, you have a group that can pretty much solve any problem quite easily. With the Sorcerer, it forces the group to come up with more creative solutions - which I obviously think is a good thing. It allows the rest of the party to get involved where as with the powerful wizard, it is all about what they can do first.Easily avoidable but without much logic if you strip the bad guy of all the gear that technically they should have to have reached their position. It's like having a wizard in the party but only throwing sorcerers at them. It tempers their access to magic but it is in my opinion inappropriate use of your DMing powers. My point was that I'm cautious in this regard of kitting the bad guys out inappropriately (either with so much so as to challenge the power level of the wizard, or too little so as the group feels cheated). In the end though, I feel I generally have to be fair and logical and kit them out effectively which tends to exacerbate the downward spiral I mentioned. The only problem is you hit that whole problem of over-challenging or under-challenging the party in combat with a very slippery slope in between. It is much easier to prepare more predicatably challenging high level encounters for a group without a wizard than with one is my essential point. Far easier to keep treasure in line.So you either dispel it or if a deity has created the forbiddance, I generally rule wish powerful enough to suppress Forbiddance in concert with a Greater Dispel for a short period of time. In the end, Forbiddance is only a 6th level cleric spell. And sure cults and clerics will have that sort of stuff up and generally it will be the first thing to go dispel-wise. Overdoing the cult/forbiddance thing though gets a little tired is all I'm saying. So in a campaign I would limit the evil cult thing more so than have a powerful evil cult and underplay them.Teleport is king in that there is nowhere that the PCs cannot travel in an instant. All the challenges from that point become one where "space" is irrelevant. Some DMs hate this, others embrace it (and embracing it is the only way I believe to get the most out of high level play - as I think you agree). Whichever way, the game changes at this point. Challenges start to become more like a game of hide and seek. Unfortunately it means that ambushes one way or the other become the order of the day making combat encounters more erratic in their possible outcome. If the PCs get the drop on the bad guys, I have no choice as DM but to make sure the bad guys have their pants down - the PCs actions and basic logic determines that they deserve it.I understood what you meant but it's still waving the DM mallet of doom, over-targeting and attempting to nerf a set of abilities. I agree though that you can almost throw anything at a high level party (with a powerful wizard) and be amazed at how easily they can defeat it.In all of this, my point is still that a high level wizard distorts every aspect of DMing preparation at that level, streets ahead of just about any other class except maybe the cleric/druid but still well in front of them. It's all about what the wizard can do first and foremost. YMMV but why I cannot fathom.It becomes almost impossible to "kill" the wizard without programming it. Comparatively, every other class has more naturally exploitable weaknesses that do not require the specific level of targeting. You can throw a particular "thing" at them and know it will challenge them. Much harder when there's a high level wizard around.Best RegardsHerremann the WisePS: and the whole point of all of this back and forth is that because the wizard dominates, the other characters start to feel like they're his sidekicks or even pawns rather than peers and equals. It becomes a situation where challenging them almost requires a quiet chat with the wizard's player to "let the other kids play with the toys this time".</blockquote>

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