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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Banshee16" data-source="post: 5291233" data-attributes="member: 7883">I think you're talking about a different game paradigm.  You keep referring to Wizards as unkillable.  Unless you're using supplemental material that goes far beyond the core, then, no, they're not.  Stoneskin, Repulsion, Globe of Invulnerability, Haste, Greater Invisibility. None of these are insurmountable,And if you're going to bring in the optional material that could make Wizards unkillable, then the DM has plenty of options that make death final.  There are spells and/or items that allow characters to be killed permanently....that shatter their souls into multiple fragments that have to be reclaimed individually, etc.And Raise Dead, Resurrection, etc.  Sure, you could use them on your princess.  But will she come back?  The PCs are somewhat special cases.  If *everyone* could come back via spells like that, whenever they want, then kings would never fear assassination or even death.  Getting too old to rule?  Get yourself killed, then have your druid flunky reincarnate you in the body of a teenager.  Sometimes the Gods don't allow this.  This is partly simulated by the idea that characters can choose whether or not they want to come back.  On that note, many NPCs *won't*.And if you want to allow all the various sources to be used, those sources also give lots of mage-killing spells...stuff to cleave through wards and protective shells...things like Reciprocal Gyre, Disjunction, etc.I've seen this argument before and it just seems like the people who cleave to it are basing their examples on very specific situations, and picking the stuff that supports the case, while ignoring the rest.It was the same thing with the rationale behind the change to Polymorph Other.  Because someone somewhere figured out to use it to turn the fighter into a dragon or fire giant for massive permanent strength bonuses (for instance), it was decided to change the spell so that you literally *couldn't* use a 5th level spell to turn your opponent into a dairy cow.  In all my years running 3E games, I *never* had players use the original spell to gain massive bonuses to their own characters.  Or game the system to the degree required to gain these advantages.I guess my players and I were just weird then, because apparently we "missed the boat" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Banshee</blockquote>

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