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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5292934" data-attributes="member: 11300">I agree that none of these are insurmountable, although Stoneskin has it's uses. An unkillable wizard would scoff at such minor magics though. You did not mention Mind Blank, Spell Turning, Moment of Prescience, Spell Resistance (a little help from the party cleric), and perhaps the most annoying of all: mirror image (quickened if necessary). [Shapechange was also in here but fortunately, it was changed and fixed].When you bring these big boys to the table, the wizard in your party becomes "unkillable". Now by unkillable, I mean of course you can knock them off but you have to program your way through these defences. And that requires specifically targetting the spell caster - something I mentioned I prefer not to do unless he's really pissed off an Archmage or powerful Lich.The spells I mentioned above that you failed to are all core and all very very powerful. If you allow optional material then sure, the game changes further. I personally prefer to always have someone as saveable - even if it takes several wishes to divine the weird arsed way of doing it. This is the bread and butter of high level gaming.Interesting although I disagree. The way of "killing" a King is taking away their power and making their living being irrelevant. Anyone can be brought back but it is costly and Cleric's generally won't do it unless it suits their agenda and even then... I suppose you could eradicate all the high level clerics... interesting story device actually...I prefer to embrace the rules as written and the various implications following on from them. Put up too many roadblocks and the players get frustrated.I have to agree here with Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That is the ultimate "I'm going to scare you spell". Player's don't like it when the DMs start getting joy-happy with this guy and vice versa. [Reciprocal Gyre is not core/pathfinder but Spell Turning deals with this very handily regardless.]Fair enough, but considering you did not mention what I consider to be the pillars of a high level mage's defence, I'm not entirely sure how familiar you are with high level wizard play - please correct me if I am wrong. Those spells will basically save the mage in any fair encounter they participate in making them effectively "unkillable". Try it and you'll see what I mean. It is a very general set of circumstances, and not specific or purely case-supporting. I have both played and DM'd against this and stick to the statements I have made on this thread - read through the entire conversation with Kaiyanwang and you will hopefully see where I'm coming from. Your quote of mine above is just me reflecting on high level play and how death no longer becomes a barrier - more a story device.Polymorph other was cute but it was Shapechange that was the real problem (and as I mentioned above, it was fixed). I don't think you missed the boat at all. None of what I mention above is abusing the spells in question, it is just using them effectively as written straight out of the pathfinder core rules.Best RegardsSam</blockquote>

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