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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5295948" data-attributes="member: 11300">To clarify. The wizards in question were not "optimized", or at least were not as far as I can tell. Once you reach high levels, it becomes natural for the wizard to look for spells that protect them - otherwise they die very easily. Mind blank, Moment of Prescience, Spell Turning, Spell Resistance and Mirror Image are all basic core defensive spells. Together they form a very difficult barrier to get through. If this is min/maxing then my understanding of the term (seeking every possible advantage to outweigh every possible disadvantage so as to be the most optimised in a focused area) must be off.As for uncreative martial players, I think you are wrong here too. I have not even mentioned particular martial characters yet because they are out-powered by the wizard, you seem to think they are uncreative or not thinking outside the box. A little harsh in terms of judgment perhaps? Martial characters (even to the point of a tricked out monk) do not have the defensive capabilities of a well played but not necessarily optimised wizard. You seem to equate damage capacity with power level which is something I disagree with. At high level, defensive capacity is the be all and end all, not how much damage you can achieve as such damage can be easily foiled. No point dishing out 600 points of damage if none of it counts - or even worse if such damage is unleashed upon your allies through being dominated. Martialists will generally have weaknesses that are far easier to "reasonably" be challenged than the wizards I mention.This unfortunately is inherent in the system. It is the nature of magic to be very powerful and do things that non-magical characters simply cannot equal although as I have mentioned, Pathfinder has done an excellent job in improving the lot of the martialists. Unfortunately though, the gap at high levels still remains - such is my experience thus far with 3.5 and Pathfinder.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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