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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Werebat" data-source="post: 5296232" data-attributes="member: 40158">Your own anecdotes are just that.  I'll assume you've been reading RPG forums for as long as I have.  Are you seriously contending that there are as many "the <non-caster> is OP and dominating my campaign" threads out there as "the <full caster> is OP and dominating my campaign" threads?Isn't there the POSSIBILITY that it isn't all of those blind-spot DMs who are the cause of the prevalence of the latter threads? You had to go VoP monk as an example of a non-caster who could outclass the (by your own admission) non-optimized mage.  How would your VoP monk do against a similarly optimized wizard like a min/maxed wizard/incantatrix/I7V or Shadowcraft Mage (head to head or in competition)?  My guess is, not so well.  To be fair you've got to compare the cream with the cream.Yes, sometimes min/maxers try out a non-casting class for fun.  Our table had the resident min/maxer playing a scout once, who was annoyingly unkillable but not top of the charts for damage.  But his min/maxed scout did not do anything close to what his min/maxed cleric or wizard could do.  Ask him if the scout class is more powerful than the wizard class and he'll laugh.I *have* seen campaigns where the full casters are reigned in and "balanced" with the non-casters.  Some packaged campaigns do this pretty well (I'm playing through "Age of Worms" right now and so far (just hit 16th level) many of the usual full caster tricks have been countered by the adventures we've been on).  But in order to do this they rely on increasingly hokey seeming "coincidences".  You can only deal with "perfect storm" situations so many times before you realize you are playing in a game specifically engineered to reign in the casters; and as a caster it is a wee bit annoying when so many of your special abilities are routinely countered by obscure foo or outright invented mechanics.   - Ron   ^*^</blockquote>

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