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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5296242" data-attributes="member: 11300">There is a reason why the argument/discussion always heads in one way or another. Because that is people's experiences. I wonder though how many people have played multiple high level campaigns (Levels 15+)? My guess is less than the people who weigh into this argument.With the full core book of wizard/cleric spells at a party's disposal, the game changes. The players are in full control of what's going on in terms of combat. Spacial considerations are now moot. Death is just a corner case of unconscious. Nothing is seemingly impossible for the PCs. All the little hinderances that might have bothered a party at lower levels are wiped away with one casting, ability or another. You highlight the 15-minute day mantra as something that only a select few experience. I wonder why that is? I'll give you some general examples and see what you think:- Easy resource draining encounter: The wizard might assist with a haste. Maybe even get out the wand or staff if necessary but in the main, the effect on their resources is negligible.- More demanding resource draining encounter: Pretty much the same but they might have to recast a personal buff or have used a handful of minor magics. At high level, a well played wizard lets the party soak up the brunt of this.- You then get to a point where you can challenge the wizard forcing them to act. At this point, things start getting dangerous for the less well defended guys. The party has to focus their attacks with the wizard needing to dump a couple of big spells if the situation is stretched, otherwise the hit to resources is again minimal. Let a couple of big summonings soak up the damage rather than the party but that's it.- Push it past this though and you force the wizard to pull out the big stuff, but at the same time, you're really making it dangerous for the other party members. This is where the difficulty in balancing things as the DM becomes a tightrope. Push too hard and your non-casters start dropping quickly.The 15 minute work day comes in when you try pushing the group. If you've just belted them and then look to test them again, they will run and hide and rest up. You can't blame them for this, they don't want to have to spend cash on true resurrections and they generally don't want to take the XP hit for lesser raising. You can't stop them bugging out. [You can but in most cases it is highly unrealistic waving of the DM mallet of doom].Now if you're happy to run mild encounters that's cool. Your group will have their resources slowly whittled away. My group will feel like I'm going soft on them, wondering what the hell's going on. Or more the point, they will just avoid these encounters through smart play or just simply working around them. Again spacially, you can't pin a high level group down all the time. In fact rarely can you force them to encounter anything they don't want to unless of course you trap them.Perhaps most groups don't experience this because their groups don't play to this higher level? Perhaps they never have access to stuff that makes this style of play not only possible but the best management of resources? Have you ever read the Wyre chronicles story hour by Sepulchrave? If you have you will smile, and if you have not may I suggest you hunt it down and enjoy yourself. I think many look at this as what high level campaigning is all about. It is the perfect example of what happens when a group follows the core rules as written at their highest level. You may find it enlightening as well as enjoyable.Anyway, I can see why people fall on either side of the 15-minute day discussion and yes, it reflects the way how they play. My own experiences are that at higher levels, combat becomes far less frequent, is more ambush orientated and is incredibly deadly. Hopefully you can see why this style of play engenders focused combat (or the 15-minute workday if that term must be used). Or you may think I have no idea what I'm talking about. Either way, such is my experience with high level play.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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