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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Banshee16" data-source="post: 5297619" data-attributes="member: 7883">Thanks Herremann.A few points.You're absolutely correct in 3E that I have less experience with high level games.  We had 1 campaign than ran for about 6-7 years, and we got to level 18.  On average, we played once every week or 2 weeks, we did a lot of role playing, and as a consequence, leveling was slow.  We also played several other campaigns in mid and low levels.Just to be clear though....we didn't change up games because high level was unplayable.  It's just that few of us had the patience to see campaigns through to lvl 20.  The players wanted to try new characters, new ideas, and I was always wanting to try new campaign settings etc.Now, my *players* played a lot more than I did.  I've even asked a few about this topic, and their general opinion is that the Wizard *is* very powerful.....but is absolutely killable at high level, and is by no means the only worthwhile character in the party...which is where many of these discussions come from (I think)....players of other character classes feeling that they have no purpose at higher levels.  And they've played far more high levels than I have.  Regardless, the Wizard is still one of the more valuable high level characters.  I just don't think the only one.  Without the cleric or druid to heal, and a fighter to keep enemies from getting in close to him, he'll have more difficulty.As to the flying wizard....absolutely....if there's no roof over his head, it's a great way to stay away from the melee guys.  But the rogue and fighter can get up there too.....liftoff is only a carpet of flying or wings of flying away.As to time limits, and reversing things........you're absolutely right.  If you take the rules as written, letting that princess die while you rest and recover is fine, because you can True Res her after.  In my game, I usually thought of the bigger implications of that.  If any ruler can simply be rezzed whenever he dies, then who cares about assassins?  Frankly, who cares about about old age?  Anyone with money can just pay a druid to off them right before they die of old age, and then reincarnate them into a youthful body.  Instant immortality!  The unfortunate thing is that it turns the clerics (and by extension, the gods of the campaign world) into cash based instant spell dispensers.  Where's the fun in that?  It's likely a place where we're different in our games.  In mine, the gods don't let just anyone be resurrected.  Certain characters said they didn't believe in gods, or didn't want to follow any, didn't want to tithe to any churches etc.  Well, good luck finding a god willing to use divine magic to bring you back.  We had a character like that, and he basically had to agree to convert to the diety who was going to raise him, and agree to serve the church.  So there was a consequence.  At the time, we only had a druid, and the player explicitly said (out of game) that he would refuse reincarnation, because he didn't want to be a badger <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  So, they had to find a cleric to cast the spell for him.As to Mind Blank...yes, I'm aware Mind Blank has a 24 hour duration, and it makes perfect sense to use it.  It's probably one of the abjurations with the longest duration.  But it's a lvl 8 spell.  Affects one creature.  In a party of 4 characters, there are the 4 lvl 8 spell slots the wizard gets by lvl 20.  Meaning no slots left for Moment of Prescience, unless you want to use a lvl 9 slot for it.  But, yes, very effective at blocking confusion, dominate etc.Not that I'm that concerned by wizards getting affected by Will based spells.True Seeing was prevalent enough in my game.  But we faced more humanoid opponents with class levels.  If you're talking about just fighting monsters, then you're right.  Not many creatures have it, that I'm aware of."That sounds more like a mid-level wizard who got ambushed. A high level wizard has the buffs in place already (they get reset every time he learns his spells for the day). You make a good point though that an isolated NPC wizard is a completely different proposition to a party wizard with several powerful allies with them. The disparity is because generally at mid level, you have a powerful wizard but they are not surrounded by several characters of classes of an equal level. Mooks are worth almost nothing to a wizard against a PC party."In some cases, yes.  I tended to use reason (and perception checks).  If the party just butchered the gate guards, two rooms away from where the wizard is, then it probably made noise.  He's going to buff himself.  If the party was stealthy, avoided fights, used a sewer grate to sneak into the palace and bypass guards or whatever, then yes, they could get the drop on the NPC wizard.  But also..........our party wizards used to debuff opposing wizards.  They'd use Greater Dispel Magic and Dispel Magic early on in fights to get rid of buffs.  The PCs didn't themselves usually use Disjunction....they wanted to gain whatever items the wizard might be carrying.Now....I haven't played Pathfinder yet, and I think they changed how Dispel Magic works.  It used to result in a bunch of dice rolling to see what effects were stripped away.  And then all the fun recalculation of stats before the battle could resume.As to Anti-Magic field...yes, the wizard would be smart to avoid it.  But if the Eldritch Knight didn't use it until he got close, at that point the wizard can't really avoid it.  Even it can be circumvented....it doesn't defend against walls of force, or prismatic walls and prismatic spheres.  But now we're back to the rock/paper/scissors thing.  Do you have Prismatic Sphere?  Or Time Stop?  Or Wish?  Or Meteor Swarm?  Or Shapechange?  You only have four lvl 9 spells (if you're lvl 20).I'm a huge Feist fan....it seemed an appropriate thread to drop the reference.  He's huge on having unkillable wizards.  Though, with the upcoming novel "Magician's End", I don't think that's going to last much longer.  In any case, you're right, the scry backlash spell (or whatever it was called) is kind of a one trick pony.  I don't remember if it could do enough damage to kill the wizard, or just send him crying for the cleric.  But, if it's a circumstance where they're in the middle of an adventure, they're already had some fights, they're worn down a bit, and they scry to find out what's going on in the throneroom or whatever, then yes, it could be a very bad thing for the wizard.You *are* probably better off asking about this in the Char Op boards.  I don't post there, but I've occasionally skimmed, and you see some pretty sick combos, and the players there are flat out better at making game breaking characters than I am.  I'm not sure if it's all dependent upon psionics.  I'm sure if you look, there are threads about optimum characters using particular books.  I've just never had the patience or interest in that type of game, as a lot of the builds are dependent upon getting weird synergy effects from feats, spells, or abilities that are from disparate books that were never really tested for use together.I haven't posted any of this to say Wizards suck.  I think they've been hit by the nerf bat more than enough in recent years.Now, one spell has been left out of the discussion....Clone.  If your Wizard has that....he's still killable....but it's pretty much like having a contingency resurrection in place, which is pretty darned useful.  Of course, that's a little like a lich with their phylactery.  Hopefully it's well hidden.  Of course, it can be cast on any party member.  So, if used properly, could make the entire party able to return from death.  He'll still die until he's transferred to the clone however.  And he loses his items as they stay with the original body.  If the party is massacred, or can't carry the body/items back, then he's got to go back without all his items (and thus more vulnerable).  Now....if you have a specialist...all bets are off...that spell might not be available.  I had a lvl 17 Transmuter...so no Necromancy spells.  In most of my games, Necromancy is described as Black Magic, corrupting the soul etc. so the spellcasters I have had, have stayed away from it.Anyways, this discussion is starting to get exhausting, so I think I've said my piece at this point.  It's been a good debate.  Thanks for taking the care to post in an amicable fashion.Banshee</blockquote>

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