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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 6332529" data-attributes="member: 6701124">That sounds about right to me.---PF seems to start off in that direction... "Where their more lawful counterparts, the devils of Hell, seek to twist mortal minds and values to remake and reshape them into reflections of their own evil, demons seek only to maim, ruin, and feed."So many of the demons seem to fit with CE: "[doing] what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction driving him to.  He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable."Demon, Babu: an assassin, a murderer, and a sadistDemon, Balor: towering figure of fire and flesh, a horned nightmare armed with flaming whip and sword flying through the night in search of its latest victim.Demon, Dretch: filled with a driving need to spread ruinDemon, Nabasu: feed on innocent souls to mature Demon, Vrock: embody all the rage, hatred, and violence of that despicable realmWhile the devils go along with LE: "methodically [taking] what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. ... He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion."Devil, Barbed: Sentinels of the vaults of hell..Devil, Bearded: Elite warriors in Hell's legionsDevil, Bone: The interrogators and inquisitors...Devil, Erinyes: Executioners, not judgesDevil, Horned: able commanders of lesser fiendsDevil, Ice: Strategists and masterminds of Hell's armiesDevil, Pit Fiend: Generals of Hell's armies and advisors to the archfiendsI think where they muck it up is with some of the demons...Demon, Glabrezu - uses magic to grant wishes to mortals as a method of rewarding those who succumb to its guile and deceitDemon, Marilith - governesses, advisors...brilliance as tacticians Demon, Succubus - rise to incredible heights of power through her manipulationsThese three don't seem to  fit the CE where their "plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized."I think this ties in to [MENTION=1932]Savage Wombat[/MENTION] 's post upthread.  PF seems to be trying to strongly tie demons and devils into planes and alignment... but then doesn't carry through. Would it help to just switch those three demons over to the devils column? To me, the Glabrezu and Succubus fit pretty well with how @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=22779" target="_blank">Hussar</a> described his view of devils operating on the prime material plane?  The other devils, fit with how they would operate in the outer planes.  ---And I don't really see that clear of a distinction between daemons and demons..."While demons seek to pervert and destroy in endless unholy rampages and devils vex and enslave in hopes of corrupting morals, daemons seek only to consume mortal life itself.""Four Horsemen... desire slaughter, ruin, and death on a cosmic scale, and drive hordes of their lesser kin to spread terror and sorrow across the planes."And most of the descriptions seem to just be tied to different kinds of death (Astra=by negative energy drain, Ceusto=suicide, Dergho=insanity, Hydro=drowning, Leuko=plagues, Mela=starvation).  Is it just that they're a bit too focused to be chaotic (only mortal life by a particular cause versus a generic rampage?) I also don't see how their desire to "stand triumphant over cadaverous cosmoses and infinities of silence before also giving way to absolute oblivion" fits with the CRB description of NE.  The NE "does whatever she can get away with... she is out for herself pure and simple".  On the other hand it seems to fit better with Jon Cogburn's description of CE in "D&D and Philosophy" were he notes it "is a path that ends in insanity and death" and "destroying everything, including herself." So, I think I'd vote for moving the moving the daemons to the demon column.---The NE divs also seem a bit CE to me: "While demons exist to destroy, devils year to corrupt and control, and daemons seek the death of all things, the foul beings know as divs strive to ruin and despoil all things created by mortals."  But I guess they're saved from CE by "[demonstrating] the pride, affectations, and tastes of geniekind" and that they are more into planning ("foster the dooms they envision, manipulating those they hate to become masters of their own destruction")?And then there are the CE demodands.  That they are "imbued with the fickle cruelty of their masters" seems to argue for the CE.  But their masters "expand their influence and holdings in the Abyss with immortal patience".  That and the way they "send [those they torture] back into the world as new believers, spreading the 'true' faith of the evil titans" both seem to argue towards NE (or even LE).---So, would it make sense to picture the Neutral Evil Abaddon as a place caught between the armies of hell (devils) and hordes of the abyss (demons and daemons) with its own native Divs and Deomdands who follow their own goals and desires, unbound by a hierarchy and not seeking random destruction?</blockquote>

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