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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pants" data-source="post: 3940071" data-attributes="member: 8849">Okay, in your experience, how many spells does a dragon cast in combat? Alternatively, how many rounds does a dragon typically last for you?I'm really of the opinion that dragons don't need a massive list of spells to refer to because, really, dragons already can do a lot. They have a multitude of natural attacks, a breath weapon, and a frightful presence.  Just how often do dragons twiddle their claws in combat?IME, most spellcasting a dragon does is buffing and/or preparing for a fight BEFORE it starts.  Scry maybe, resist energy, mage armor, MAYBE another spell, but generally that's it. Dragons usually have potent enough defenses that they don't need a truckload of spells to stay relevant as opposed to the level 20 wizard who needs a country's treasury full of magic and a bullet-list of 'spells to cast so that I don't die when the fighter breathes near me' to remain a threat.That's not very fair at all.D&D is already a complex enough game to run, why make it moreso for those folks who don't have the time to spend on that, or who'd rather spend that time drawing maps or plotting campaigns? Not everyone enjoys 30 minutes devoted to statting things up.I really could care less about what 'classical' dragons do.OT, but that was one of the single biggest complaints about dragons at EW after 3.0 came out, the undervalued CR's because designers assumed that players would 'always' be prepared to fight a dragon.Okay, I can agree with this. Dragons are such iconic monsters that players can over-prepare for encounters with them and when dragons have vulnerabilities to certain energies, then yes that CAN make the encounter anti-climactic. I am, admittedly, NOT a fan of a dragon flinging fireballs or lightning bolts at adventurers. That does not fit my idea of what makes a dragon a dragon.Does this mean a human rogue who leads a criminal guild has no non-combat abilities because he can't cast spells?Balor: Bluff +31, Diplomacy +35, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)Pit Fiend: Bluff +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Spellcraft +31SLA: At will - create undead'Most' of their abilities revolve around combat, but those hefty skill modifiers mean that balors/pit fiends can lie, intimidate, or even talk their way out of confrontations with relative ease. I'd definitely call those 'non-combat' abilities.What, are players fighting balors and pit fiends every week? Are they reading the MM and planning from there? My players barely remember what's a demon and what's a devil let-alone what they can do.A big guard dog with an Intellect more massive than any of them.Seriously, for minions, to make its lair defensible, all a dragon needs are some kobolds. Hell bonus to Craft (traps)! Minions don't need to be a roadblock for players, I've thrown plenty of weak encounters at my players because A) it makes sense for them to exist and B) it allows the players to strut their stuff.Players love a chance to shine and if they plow through some kobolds and bungle through a few traps before hitting the meat of the encounter, so much the better.A dragon is smart enough to find a way to do something. A dragon has a higher Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma that it can potentially think its way out of any given situation.Granted a dragon is only so good as it's DM, but when you're dealing with a creature of such massive intellect, I think it's okay to fudge and say the dragon thought of such-and-such years ago.AFAIR, dragons only inspire fear when attacking.1. Dragon promises power and wealth to evil spellcaster2. ....3. Profit!</blockquote>

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