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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack99" data-source="post: 5357032" data-attributes="member: 53135">First of all, thanks for getting this thread back on track. Second of all, thanks for putting into words something I have been struggling to do. I do actually think you are right. Core 4e is this "surface" game. I however was very happy with it, because I always believed it wouldn't matter. Roleplaying and immersion doesn't come from the books, especially not the rules, but from us, the DM's and the players. What I have been realizing, slowly, is that in fact 4e has made my group more grid-centric, more focused on what the character can do in combat. Its been slowly creeping up on us, and while I had a feeling of je ne sais quoi, I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong. It's not that it is a huge problem, my players all seem happy enough with the game, but there is this feeling that we lost some of the magic along the way.Of course, it might not be 4e that has done this. Maybe its us getting older, maybe it's something else entirely. But I do get a totally different vibe when reading stuff from WotC lately - especially Essentials, but also some of the dragon/dungeon articles who seem much more.. alive(?)Fair enough. Despite your reasonable arguments, I must admit that I still disagree with you. The warpriest, which I would compare to either the Str-cleric or the Runepriest, might be a tad more powerful, but both those classes/builds were somewhat below the powercurve, unless heavily optimized. As for the mage, yeah, there is a slight boost to what is already considered the strongest controller, I will give you that. I will still argue that to compare his relative overpoweredness to that of previous editions, or saying its heading in that direction, is like comparing apples to oranges. The wizard of old was so broken that he could run around circles with just about anyone - even if naked <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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