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<blockquote data-quote="UHF" data-source="post: 5360758" data-attributes="member: 95672">I feel that the rules are a strong determinant of play style and improvisation.&nbsp; I would like to point out that pre-AD&amp;D the rules didn't really have any skills.&nbsp; Players that wanted to disarm a trap had to say exactly what they did, and the DM had to judge the results.&nbsp; There was no &quot;disarm trap&quot; roll.&nbsp; All you could do was improvise.&nbsp; (I'll wager that that is the reason those players stay in their games.)Technically all characters in AD&amp;D could be as cool as 4e.&nbsp; But I feel that its very difficult to ask the players to constantly improvise their actions.&nbsp; Hence, many players devolve to &quot;I hit it with my sword.&quot;&nbsp; Or &quot;I pick the lock.&quot; There is probably not a huge difference between that and &quot;I use my At-Will&quot; in 4e.I feel that setting and play style is a very strong determinant of improvisation. An adventure that is all wall to wall battles by the book, will certainly result in players that see little reward and consequently put little effort into improvisation.&nbsp; On the other hand, settings which constantly offer intellectual challenges and problem solving will probably make a big difference in what kind of approach the players come up with to the game.Last but not least... DM and players are huge factors.&nbsp; Some guys just want to &quot;Hit it with a sword.&quot;&nbsp; Gumps... Tanks...&nbsp; Some of us DMs are lazy or incapable too.&nbsp; Many DMs like 4e because putting together encounters is a snap.In my vision, rules light results in more improvisation.&nbsp; Rules Heavy.. not so much.&nbsp; I do feel that 4e is half way in between.&nbsp; Its easy to understand, so the rules don't generally get in the way.&nbsp; But because it codifies coolness in the form of powers it results in many players who just follow the card's descriptions.&nbsp; The coolness is in the character sheet, not the character, or more importantly the player.In my opinion there is more creativity and role playing to be had from 4e powers, and I feel that is often overlooked.&nbsp; Thief Utility: Bump.. hit a lock with rock to open it.&nbsp; Given that like 90% of modern locks in use today can be bumped... this is totally cool.&nbsp; Your guys get locked up... thief finds a rock... Bump... cool.&nbsp; Don't want to carry picks?&nbsp; Take Bump.&nbsp; I've already mentioned Archer's Staircase.&nbsp; I'm personally leaning to less combat optimized characters and I'm amazed at what can come out of 4e.Improvisation in 4e needs special attention to be encouraged.&nbsp; The reality is that 4e is well known for being easy to set up as a DM. But that doesn't necessarily result in more complex encounters where the players need to think.&nbsp; I feel that it is important for the DM to stop taking the easy way all the time and put some effort into providing a challenge that goes beyond the character sheet.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="UHF, post: 5360758, member: 95672"] I feel that the rules are a strong determinant of play style and improvisation. I would like to point out that pre-AD&D the rules didn't really have any skills. Players that wanted to disarm a trap had to say exactly what they did, and the DM had to judge the results. There was no "disarm trap" roll. All you could do was improvise. (I'll wager that that is the reason those players stay in their games.) Technically all characters in AD&D could be as cool as 4e. But I feel that its very difficult to ask the players to constantly improvise their actions. Hence, many players devolve to "I hit it with my sword." Or "I pick the lock." There is probably not a huge difference between that and "I use my At-Will" in 4e. I feel that setting and play style is a very strong determinant of improvisation. An adventure that is all wall to wall battles by the book, will certainly result in players that see little reward and consequently put little effort into improvisation. On the other hand, settings which constantly offer intellectual challenges and problem solving will probably make a big difference in what kind of approach the players come up with to the game. Last but not least... DM and players are huge factors. Some guys just want to "Hit it with a sword." Gumps... Tanks... Some of us DMs are lazy or incapable too. Many DMs like 4e because putting together encounters is a snap. In my vision, rules light results in more improvisation. Rules Heavy.. not so much. I do feel that 4e is half way in between. Its easy to understand, so the rules don't generally get in the way. But because it codifies coolness in the form of powers it results in many players who just follow the card's descriptions. The coolness is in the character sheet, not the character, or more importantly the player. In my opinion there is more creativity and role playing to be had from 4e powers, and I feel that is often overlooked. Thief Utility: Bump.. hit a lock with rock to open it. Given that like 90% of modern locks in use today can be bumped... this is totally cool. Your guys get locked up... thief finds a rock... Bump... cool. Don't want to carry picks? Take Bump. I've already mentioned Archer's Staircase. I'm personally leaning to less combat optimized characters and I'm amazed at what can come out of 4e. Improvisation in 4e needs special attention to be encouraged. The reality is that 4e is well known for being easy to set up as a DM. But that doesn't necessarily result in more complex encounters where the players need to think. I feel that it is important for the DM to stop taking the easy way all the time and put some effort into providing a challenge that goes beyond the character sheet. [/QUOTE]

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