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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fusangite" data-source="post: 1217439" data-attributes="member: 7240">Umbran,I think you have misinterpreted what I have said. I did not say that our culture objectively measures intelligence. What I said was that all measures of intelligence are culturally embedded. I agree that measures of intelligence in our culture and in others tend to entail distortions based on cultural factors. So, if we put someone with high numeracy and literacy skills in an oral culture, they might or might not be measured as smart depending on their aural memory and other skills, only some of which overlap with our culture's measure of intelligence.However, the fact that there are distortions in a model does not make it useless. I'm not arguing that IQ measures intelligence accurately; all I am doing is positing a positive correlation coefficient between it and intelligence. And that's all I need to do to demonstrate that my model functions. Similarly, with proficiency in a hobby, all I am arguing for is a positive correlation coefficient in order for my model to work; at no time do I suggest a one to one correspondence. Finally, as for barriers to entry. I agree: I am suggesting that the vast majority of the population can clear our barriers to entry. Remember, I'm not arguing for a considerable difference in intelligence between gamers and the average population -- I'm arguing for a difference. The fact that our hobby's skill requirements has effective barriers to entry that are intelligence-related, again, is sufficient.I am not suggesting that gamers are a community I would characterize as exceptionally bright. All I am doing is answering the question of the thread in the affirmative: on average, gamers are smarter.I agree that we should not politicize the debate excessively. But, if you asked me whether gamers tend to be more middle class than average, I would also answer in the affirmative. I think the problem with this debate is that gamers are a community that tends to conflate "intelligence" with some kind of absolute value or worth as a person. The tone of this debate suggests to me that the gaming community values intelligence more highly than any of the other D&D attributes. Because people see it is so strongly linked to worth as a person, their elitist or egalitarian politics are played out in the context of this debate. Somehow, people with egalitarian worldviews find themselves needing to argue for a culturally transcendent theory of intelligence, stripped of all distortions and apportioned as equally as possible across the population because they see intelligence as having something to do with citizenship or value. Similarly, in so many elitist posts on this thread, we see people conflating their worth as a person with their perceived superior intelligence. Smarter does not equal better nor does it equal "capable of succeeding"; most human attributes require use of the brain -- that doesn't mean you can collapse most human attributes into the category intelligence.To digress briefly into politics, I associate this problem with the New Left belief in "participatory democracy." We can see this problem really clearly in, for instance, Murray Bookchin's Remaking Society when the author, in describing the shift to a democratic, egalitarian, sustainable society also states that when the shift to this new society takes place, everyone in the world's intelligence will increase to the same level as his.I do not hold with that. I am an egalitarian; I believe that my late uncle whose IQ was 47 had the same worth and entitlements as a human being as I do. It took a few years to come to that belief, though, because I used to value myself based on my intelligence. Once I was able to separate my belief that I was smart from my desire to feel self worth, then I could make that leap. But the tone of this thread seems to suggest that my belief system is the exception rather than the rule.Despite the high value our society places on intelligence in its rhetoric, frankly, as D&D attributes go, Constitution (e.g. Fortitude saves vs. cancer) and Charisma matter a whole lot more difference in terms of getting through the day and being a successful person in our civilization.</blockquote>

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