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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 1219763" data-attributes="member: 177">Not if the barriers in question select as strongly or more strongly for other factors than they do for intelligence.  I hope this will become more clear in a moment.The modal language is directly related to the lack of variables <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />If I sayt here's a correlation, that means that two things tend to be linked.  A high value of X implies a better than random chance probability of Y being high.I can do an analysis, and show that as IQ goes up, so does the average income in the person's household.  I can do an analysis, and show that as IQ number goes up, so does the average grade level attained.  In each case, I'd say there's a correlation.I have no numeric value that I know directly measures intelligence.  The only measure I do have is IQ tests.  I cannot do an analysis and show that as IQ scores rise, IQ test scores rise, and thereby claim that intelligence is rising.  I need a separate measure for intelligence that is not an IQ test.  Otherwise, I'm saying that IQ tests measure intelliegence because intelligence is what IQ tests measure. That's circular.Yes.  And, as I noted at the very start of the thread, the lack of a generally accepted definition makes things difficult.Well, it isn't yours.  I would guess that it isn't the definition most folk around here use, either, though I might be wrong.To me, intelligence is not the proficiency with linguistic, numeric, and logic skill.  Intelligence is the ability to be proficient with those skills, and possibly others.  For example - there is a famous gorilla, named Koko, who learned a form of sign language.  Gaining the linguistic skill did not make Koko intelligent.  It revealed her intelligence.  It showed she had greater mental capabilities than we thought gorillas posessed.  It showed us that gorillas are more intelligent than we thought.Ah.  Unfortunately, it seems your understanding of statistics is flawed. The truth is that we may be selecting for any one of those things, or some combination.  I'm not arguing that we cannot be selecting for intelligence.  I'm arguing that we only know that intelligence is one of many things for which we might be selecting.  We don't know which one we're actually selecting for without tests separate from the original selection criteria.</blockquote>

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