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Message: <blockquote data-quote="small pumpkin man" data-source="post: 3929754" data-attributes="member: 57910">While I don't disagree with your basic point that Good fluff is more likely to sell a book, simply because it's easier tell at a glance whether or not you like fluff, whereas crunch takes quite a bit of testing or looking over conflicting reports to figure out, I would like to point out that while the underlying crunch of MoI was quite interesting, possibly 4E portentous and a really good idea, of the actual classes (that is, the major reasons, crunch wise, to buy the book) it only really had one realistically playable class and two theoretically playable classes, which isn't much better than ToM's one playable and two essentially unplayable classes.That was the major reason I posted, but I'm going to keep talking until I put my foot in my mouth, okay?kewlYeah, see, I like the fluff. I like the change in the planes, it's kinda like the system I made up for the homebrew game I'm running, and I like making Demons and Devils more distinct, I like the split in Eladrin/Elf I think it makes sense (although it doesn't work great for our world, I'm sure I can ignore it or fit it in).I don't like the names, I think many of them are stupid, overly busy and well, poorly written, (the Lightning Panther Strike ability from Races and Classes exemplifies them to me, Panther Assault indicates silent deadly speed, Lightning Strike indicates loud violent speed, Lightning Panther Strike is both redundant AND contradictory, need I say more?) and I don't like the idea of magic "traditions" but both are essentially optional, so I merely don't plan to include them. on a similar note, my favorite settings are Eberron and a homebrew my friends and I are making as a group, which while not as different as, say, Darksun, does stray from core, so I have no real connection to the "core" fluff, indeed, I ignore it most of the time, meaning I get kind of annoyed by people who complain loudly about having to make slight changes from core, when I've been doing that and finding no problem with it, especially when I can see that many of the changes are being made with new players in mind, and can see how the 4E fluff would make it much easier for a new GM/group to throw a game together, who would need the help far more than some GM/group who's been playing since 1980.The most recent playtest took 20 rounds, it also only took two hours, that's with about 16 goblins and one of the the "complicated" dragons, if the numbers are easier, and the "special cases" easier to figure out, it could quite well be quicker while still having a bunch of interuptions. Also, SWSaga uses a similar core, and by all accounts is much faster/cleaner, (not that I've played it yet).In regards to your second point, trapfinding is a feat as is uncanny dodge, and yeah, I'm not caring, Trapfinding and "can cast spells in armour" aren't what defines the rogue and the cleric in 3E, and they were unlikely to in 4E either, Wizards (I'm assuming) still don't get Armour prof, and the way it looks multiclassing works, will actually have to bust out those 3 feats to do so, Clerics can heal with taking actions and can make others self healing abilities work better by standing near them (last time I heard), and it looks like you may need to be a rogue to get twf or Spring Attack. To simplify, they're changing what is special to classes, not removing it.As you can see I don't think they're doing that, although they're probably  hyping stuff up, as you would expect.Not getting this, do you mean the fluff changes? Again, making it simpler for new players to make their own world, (which I think many of the changes do do) should be more important than making it slightly harder for older players to convert their games, since they likely have the experience to do so. Also, rammifications? to fluff changes? I'm getting a tad confused, but don't worry about that, I'll just move on.Absolutely, but it didn't happen with 2nd to 3rd, I didn't expect it now, they're just being more honest about it, and people are jumping on them because of that honesty (not you), which is kind of annoying.Yeah, that sucks, my condolences.I do have to say, I've see some far more reasonable explanations for the whole "not currently interested in 4E" thing recently, hopefully the bashing from both sides has calmed down a bit.Yeah, I totally get that, actually, the podcast (which I'm pretty sure had Noonan) had a similar thing, with them sitting there laughing at how stupid guardinals were, and I felt very much that if they hadn't been good, and I'd actually ever fought them/had them in my campains, I'd be VERY pissed off right now.On a side note the fact that people got really annoyed at the demon/devil/succubus thing, but not at that podcast either shows that nobody listens to those, or the alignment system does need changing, if only so that people can fight/interact with always good creatures regularly Fair enough.I guess my feeling/POV about 4E is that 3E is a really good game which I play weekly and quite enjoy/put a decent amount of mental time into. But this game which I've invested so much into comes with some fundamental problems, which while may not come up all the time, do have to be worked around for our group to play the game and tell the story we want to tell. It's also relatively difficult to teach to other people and get them interested.Now, when WotC say they're bringing out a new version of this game I put so much effort into, and  echo all of the problems I'm having, and the solutions to those problems they put forward are logically sound (as far as I can tell), I got kind of exited.I mean, ultimately, even if 4E ends up with it's own set of problems, the creaters seem on the ball enough that I can't really see it being worse than 3E, meaning currently I'd probably buy it even if it doesn't come near to the hype, simply because a game as good as 3E is a game with playing, and it seems different enough that I can see it being possible or easier to tell stories/play games that were difficult/impossible in 3E.</blockquote>

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