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<blockquote data-quote="DammitVictor" data-source="post: 8285128" data-attributes="member: 6750908">The difference is that nobody, absolutely nobody, who writes that scene in that action movie then writes their heroes confronting the grieving families of the people they killed-- which is something that a certain kind of juvenile DM absolutely gets off on-- and the audience of the action movie doesn't expect an angelic pat on the head for being objectively morally correct when cheering on the right heroes.You can write a story about Good triumphing over Evil, and you can write a story about real-life actions having real-life consequences, but you can't write them both at the same time-- and you can't &quot;keep things simple&quot; and keep introducing moral complications at the same time. As soon as you introduce the question of killing orc babies, you cannot stop the inexorable slide toward questioning the wholesale killing of their fathers. And the problem is... a lot of people keep saying that they want one of these games or the other, but then they keep trying to shoehorn the other style of gameplay into it.Gnomes were a playable race in the AD&amp;D Player's Handbook, 1978; I think you're probably right about Top Ballista being their debut in Basic D&amp;D. Orcs of Thar offered the first playable orcs (and trolls) for Basic in 1989, Complete Book of Humanoids added a bunch of common humanoids to AD&amp;D (2e) in 1993.Ten years before World of Warcraft. But since when have facts ever made a difference in this argument?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DammitVictor, post: 8285128, member: 6750908"] The difference is that nobody, [I]absolutely nobody[/I], who writes that scene in that action movie then writes their heroes confronting the grieving families of the people they killed-- which is something that a certain kind of juvenile DM absolutely gets off on-- and the audience of the action movie doesn't expect an angelic pat on the head for being [I]objectively morally correct [/I]when cheering on the right heroes. You can write a story about Good triumphing over Evil, and you can write a story about real-life actions having real-life consequences, but you can't write them both at the same time-- and you can't "keep things simple" and keep introducing moral complications at the same time. As soon as you introduce the question of killing orc babies, you cannot stop the inexorable slide toward questioning the wholesale killing of their fathers. And the problem is... a lot of people keep saying that they [I]want[/I] one of these games or the other, but then they keep trying to shoehorn the other style of gameplay into it. Gnomes were a playable race in the AD&D [I]Player's Handbook[/I], 1978; I think you're probably right about [I]Top Ballista[/I] being their debut in Basic D&D. [I]Orcs of Thar[/I] offered the first playable orcs (and trolls) for Basic in 1989, [I]Complete Book of Humanoids [/I]added a bunch of common humanoids to AD&D (2e) in 1993. Ten years before [I]World of Warcraft[/I]. But since when have facts ever made a difference in this argument? [/QUOTE]

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