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Are players always entitled to see their own rolls?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 6727929" data-attributes="member: 5100"><p>For the original question, I'd say "No" in an absolute sense, but "Maybe" for any given table. Let me elaborate....</p><p></p><p>Do I trust my players to not metagame? Yup. On the flip side, they trust me to treat them fairly. It's all about what the players want from the game. I've gotten been told to pass more notes because the <u>players</u> wanted to keep a sense of mystery about things. They just find it more fun. Fortunately, I tend to agree. So, yeah, I hide rolls from them: stealth, perception, knowledges, sometime even saving throws ("am I or am I not a werewolf, now?"). That's the game my group, as a whole, wants to play. </p><p></p><p>Really, it's like watching a detective movie. Some movies show both the hero and the villain, such that the audience has all the information long before the sleuth. Others will hide information from the viewers, such that the "big reveal" is guaranteed to catch the audience by surprise and impress us with the cleverness of the protagonist. Still others at least make the clues available to the audience, even if they aren't called out directly, such that watching the show is something of a participatory experience. Each has its fans -- most people like two styles, if not all three.</p><p></p><p>There's absolutely nothing wrong with having every die roll in plain sight. It's a totally valid experience. If you're doing it because the group doesn't trust the GM, then there are issues at play, but that's not inherent in the "open" play style.</p><p></p><p>There's nothing wrong with the opposite, either. I've ran a WoD game where the players didn't even see their character sheets for a year. I stated the characters up based on the prelude and gave the players a short write-up. I spent XP based on what they'd used and/or what they studied in character. I rolled all the dice. It was a good way to introduce a new group to the system and keep the mystery that goes with a slow reveal of the supernatural world. Again, if it's a GM power trip or because he doesn't trust the players, then there's a social issue.</p><p></p><p>Most games exist on a spectrum, though, just like most dramatic shows. Some "meta" elements are open and others are secret. When running published modules, I've made reference to "the edge of the map" when we've decided that it's beer and pretzels (thus, I'm not creating new areas). I've also passed notes that read "Nope. <em>Detect magic</em> doesn't show anything." My main rule of thumb is that anytime the PC wouldn't know whether they succeeded until it bit them in the butt (stealth, perception, knowledge, insight, deception, etc.) happens behind the screen. That's the way almost every GM I've ever run with has done it.</p><p></p><p>Notes are more of an art. I've figured out how to use a soft voice and weave commentary into the players' conversations in a way to account for character madness, possession, or even when one PC is picking another's pocket. Most of the time, I do that to augment any note passing. I'd really love to have someone come and watch a session, sometime, though, to see just how many secrets I hide in plain sight.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In a word: immersion. Some players like having to figure out the right answer on their own. If you eliminated everything that doesn't work, it's the same as telling them what <u>will</u> work, which reduces it to just checking the boxes and rolling the dice. For myself and at least one of my players, one of the big reasons why we play TTRPGs instead of (just) video games is that a video game often has a "tell" on what actions are acceptable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercule, post: 6727929, member: 5100"] For the original question, I'd say "No" in an absolute sense, but "Maybe" for any given table. Let me elaborate.... Do I trust my players to not metagame? Yup. On the flip side, they trust me to treat them fairly. It's all about what the players want from the game. I've gotten been told to pass more notes because the [U]players[/U] wanted to keep a sense of mystery about things. They just find it more fun. Fortunately, I tend to agree. So, yeah, I hide rolls from them: stealth, perception, knowledges, sometime even saving throws ("am I or am I not a werewolf, now?"). That's the game my group, as a whole, wants to play. Really, it's like watching a detective movie. Some movies show both the hero and the villain, such that the audience has all the information long before the sleuth. Others will hide information from the viewers, such that the "big reveal" is guaranteed to catch the audience by surprise and impress us with the cleverness of the protagonist. Still others at least make the clues available to the audience, even if they aren't called out directly, such that watching the show is something of a participatory experience. Each has its fans -- most people like two styles, if not all three. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having every die roll in plain sight. It's a totally valid experience. If you're doing it because the group doesn't trust the GM, then there are issues at play, but that's not inherent in the "open" play style. There's nothing wrong with the opposite, either. I've ran a WoD game where the players didn't even see their character sheets for a year. I stated the characters up based on the prelude and gave the players a short write-up. I spent XP based on what they'd used and/or what they studied in character. I rolled all the dice. It was a good way to introduce a new group to the system and keep the mystery that goes with a slow reveal of the supernatural world. Again, if it's a GM power trip or because he doesn't trust the players, then there's a social issue. Most games exist on a spectrum, though, just like most dramatic shows. Some "meta" elements are open and others are secret. When running published modules, I've made reference to "the edge of the map" when we've decided that it's beer and pretzels (thus, I'm not creating new areas). I've also passed notes that read "Nope. [I]Detect magic[/I] doesn't show anything." My main rule of thumb is that anytime the PC wouldn't know whether they succeeded until it bit them in the butt (stealth, perception, knowledge, insight, deception, etc.) happens behind the screen. That's the way almost every GM I've ever run with has done it. Notes are more of an art. I've figured out how to use a soft voice and weave commentary into the players' conversations in a way to account for character madness, possession, or even when one PC is picking another's pocket. Most of the time, I do that to augment any note passing. I'd really love to have someone come and watch a session, sometime, though, to see just how many secrets I hide in plain sight. In a word: immersion. Some players like having to figure out the right answer on their own. If you eliminated everything that doesn't work, it's the same as telling them what [U]will[/U] work, which reduces it to just checking the boxes and rolling the dice. For myself and at least one of my players, one of the big reasons why we play TTRPGs instead of (just) video games is that a video game often has a "tell" on what actions are acceptable. [/QUOTE]
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