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Are players always entitled to see their own rolls?
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<blockquote data-quote="redrick" data-source="post: 6728187" data-attributes="member: 6777696"><p>I think the "lack of trust around metagaming" is sort of missing the point. I don't hide a roll because I don't <em>trust</em> my players not to metagame. I hide a roll because surprises are more fun if they are not spoiled. Now, most of my games aren't built around tons of surprises, but sometimes they are, and for me, it's not fun as a player to "role-play" surprise very often. I'd rather actually be surprised. It is more immersive, and it is more fun. So, if there are perception checks and insight checks that need to happen behind a screen to make that happen, I'm cool with it. For instance, I would have no problem with a table that always rolled insight checks behind the screen.</p><p></p><p>I don't see how you can't trust your DM to roll a check behind a screen, but still trust them to GM your game. If a DM wants to railroad a game just the way they want, they don't need to fudge an insight check behind a screen for that. They just change the DC. Or they just outlaw the roll altogether. Or give the character a magic item of truth-seemy-ness.</p><p></p><p>I did see an interesting mechanic in an OSR adventure called "Slaughter Grid". This adventure calls for player perception, trap check, etc rolls to be "over/under" rolls. Basically, whenever a check is called, the DM pre-determines (either by whim or a d2) that the roll be "over" or "under". They do not tell the player. It's using 1e style percentile checks, but the basic outcome is that you either treat the check as normal, or you invert the roll, where a 1 becomes a 20 and a 2 becomes a 19, etc. An average roll is always an average roll, but when you roll a 20, you never know for sure if you just blew that check out of the water --- or critically failed. It's kind of an interesting mechanic for a dastardly trap-laden dungeon. I haven't actually used it in play.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, in summary, a DM can call for a hidden check whenever it is appropriate to maintain a degree of mystery, hopefully to facilitate fun at the table. If the DM over-uses this technique, it could be frustrating for players, and if a DM uses cover of the screen to routinely fudge player checks, that DM probably has larger issues with ceding control of the story. (In a situation where a DM can deny a roll outright, set a DC on the fly, or ret-con in a rule-breaking magic item, I don't really understand why a DM would ever need to fudge a player roll in the first place. As the DM, you control the goalposts and can move them whenever you want, if that's really what you're into.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="redrick, post: 6728187, member: 6777696"] I think the "lack of trust around metagaming" is sort of missing the point. I don't hide a roll because I don't [I]trust[/I] my players not to metagame. I hide a roll because surprises are more fun if they are not spoiled. Now, most of my games aren't built around tons of surprises, but sometimes they are, and for me, it's not fun as a player to "role-play" surprise very often. I'd rather actually be surprised. It is more immersive, and it is more fun. So, if there are perception checks and insight checks that need to happen behind a screen to make that happen, I'm cool with it. For instance, I would have no problem with a table that always rolled insight checks behind the screen. I don't see how you can't trust your DM to roll a check behind a screen, but still trust them to GM your game. If a DM wants to railroad a game just the way they want, they don't need to fudge an insight check behind a screen for that. They just change the DC. Or they just outlaw the roll altogether. Or give the character a magic item of truth-seemy-ness. I did see an interesting mechanic in an OSR adventure called "Slaughter Grid". This adventure calls for player perception, trap check, etc rolls to be "over/under" rolls. Basically, whenever a check is called, the DM pre-determines (either by whim or a d2) that the roll be "over" or "under". They do not tell the player. It's using 1e style percentile checks, but the basic outcome is that you either treat the check as normal, or you invert the roll, where a 1 becomes a 20 and a 2 becomes a 19, etc. An average roll is always an average roll, but when you roll a 20, you never know for sure if you just blew that check out of the water --- or critically failed. It's kind of an interesting mechanic for a dastardly trap-laden dungeon. I haven't actually used it in play. Anyway, in summary, a DM can call for a hidden check whenever it is appropriate to maintain a degree of mystery, hopefully to facilitate fun at the table. If the DM over-uses this technique, it could be frustrating for players, and if a DM uses cover of the screen to routinely fudge player checks, that DM probably has larger issues with ceding control of the story. (In a situation where a DM can deny a roll outright, set a DC on the fly, or ret-con in a rule-breaking magic item, I don't really understand why a DM would ever need to fudge a player roll in the first place. As the DM, you control the goalposts and can move them whenever you want, if that's really what you're into.) [/QUOTE]
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