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Message: <blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 6728902" data-attributes="member: 1210">Well, as one of the guys who likes secret rolls, I'm afraid I have to dispute your theory, at least inasmuch as it applies to my group. I'm totally with you on the middle point- "Is there a need for dice at all?". But we differ on what constitutes that need. I feel that uncertainty improves the game; it certainly does for me as a player, and when I'm DMing, the fact that the pcs don't always know for sure seems to enhance things for both myself and my players. So sometimes the need to throw the dice arises because there's a chance of failure, but sometimes it arises because the players don't know whether there's a chance of failure. For example, I still roll a d20 if they search for secret doors where there aren't any. I also don't often have players say things like, "I use Persuasion to try to talk her into letting us see the prince..." Instead, since 4e, I've tried hard to encourage them to tell me what their characters are doing, and then let me tell them when to roll a check. So it's "I try to talk her into letting us see the prince by showing her the note from the spymaster", to which I might respond, "Make a Charisma (Persuasion) check". But I usually don't make rolls on social interactions until someone says or does something significant enough to affect the way an npc sees them or interacts with them. You don't get to roll a Persuasion check to try to talk down a price just because you BS with the smith for ten minutes. I don't see that this has anything to do with secret checks. To me, "I rolled a 20 on that search check, so I know there's not a secret door here" is the exact opposite of immersion. Which isn't to say that your playstyle is any less valid than mine or any less fun at your table; we just have different preferences.</blockquote>

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