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Are Prestige Classes Really Necessary?
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<blockquote data-quote="Kannik" data-source="post: 92984" data-attributes="member: 984"><p><strong>Thoughts</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can see what you are driving at, and I do agree to an extent, especially given that the Paladin was/seems to be a prestige class done up as a core class. But think of the alternative--we would have a gaggle of core classes to choose from, and would that really be any better than a gaggle of prestige classes?</p><p></p><p>I don't think we would have to go to a fully classless system to move away from the prestige classes (though there are benefits (and disadvantages) to doing so), but simply using the skill and feat concept in place make it easier to 'open up' the character class to pursue different options.</p><p></p><p>To use the Duelist as an example (and I'm not saying the duelist is a good prestige class per se, just using it as an example), we want someone who can fight effectively without heavy armour. (Now, we’re discounting whether the character would last long in the RealWorld(tm), but this is fantasy }<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> The greatest benefit that the PrC gives towards this goal is Canny Defense, at 1st level, and Elaborate Parry at 7th. Making these feats w/ prereqs of some sort (need dodge, expertise, nothing over light armour for Canny Defense, for example) would eliminate the need to have this ‘special’ class. Precise strike is a bit harder, for it emulates sneak attack but only with melee weapons (and is it really on every hit??) but not impossible to have variations on ‘sneak attack’. The rest are pretty much standard feats.</p><p></p><p>If we wanted to make the feat system a bit more flexible to accommodate this better kind of neat-o Prestige Feats (and no, I’m not suggesting necessarily that we call it that }<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />, we could have some feats take up 2 feat slots perhaps. Of course, the base classes might want to give out more feats more often to make up for this. </p><p></p><p>One other thing, BTW, that the Duelist does that taking some feats and a level or two of rogue (for sneak attack/spot/etc) is allow one to advance with the abilities they want w/o taking a hit to your BAB. Whether this is a good thing or not, not sure. </p><p></p><p>And that does bring up skill lists as well – right now I think the system of class and cross-class skills, not to mention the really low skill points for most classes doesn’t work quite the way I’d want it both in terms of how skilled people are generally, but also how broad a range of skills they should likely have (universities or no).</p><p></p><p>So, what I think would work better would be more generic classes (Perhaps as RW is suggesting), with greater use of feats, more skill points and more feats available to customize the classes. Supplements could lose the PrC chapters and instead have better feat chapters, and then ‘character path’ suggestion chapters to make what would normally be a PrC. Also, specific ‘weapon feats’ could be introduced that only work with a weapon or certain weapons. Or certain spell-type feats. Ways to power spells as feats. Evasion as feats. And so on.</p><p></p><p>Sure, it might make managing one’s character more ‘complex’, but given the level its at already where you have to pick feats and skills, I don’t think its that much more of a jump.</p><p></p><p>For paladins and rangers and the like who have spellcasting, well, the Ranger is more or less a Fighter/Rogue/Druid, so it could be done through multiclassing relatively easily (relatively, not perfectly, of course }<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> and a Paladin could be figher/cleric, with a ‘Divine Light’ feat for the bonus to saves, a feat for the mount, a feat for lay-on-hands, that kinda thing. Obviously somewhere it breaks down and won’t be perhaps exactly what we would expect, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Hmmm. Now if we made the lay-on-hands a [divine] feat, then a cleric could take it, in exchange for something else, like turning, for example. </p><p></p><p>Now, an even neater possibility would be to have BAB and perhaps Saves tied to a feat in some way (each BAB + would be a feat, with a limitation of not being able to be greater than your character level). But the abuses that could result may have to be watched for. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, I think I’m just getting carried away and throwing out ideas kinda randomly and without really thinking them through. }<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Disclaimer: I make no vouching for the above-presented ideas to work as stated and without much careful research and writing. }:></p><p></p><p>I think I'll stop for now before my fingers get carried away again…</p><p></p><p>Kannik }<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kannik, post: 92984, member: 984"] [b]Thoughts[/b] I can see what you are driving at, and I do agree to an extent, especially given that the Paladin was/seems to be a prestige class done up as a core class. But think of the alternative--we would have a gaggle of core classes to choose from, and would that really be any better than a gaggle of prestige classes? I don't think we would have to go to a fully classless system to move away from the prestige classes (though there are benefits (and disadvantages) to doing so), but simply using the skill and feat concept in place make it easier to 'open up' the character class to pursue different options. To use the Duelist as an example (and I'm not saying the duelist is a good prestige class per se, just using it as an example), we want someone who can fight effectively without heavy armour. (Now, we’re discounting whether the character would last long in the RealWorld(tm), but this is fantasy }:) The greatest benefit that the PrC gives towards this goal is Canny Defense, at 1st level, and Elaborate Parry at 7th. Making these feats w/ prereqs of some sort (need dodge, expertise, nothing over light armour for Canny Defense, for example) would eliminate the need to have this ‘special’ class. Precise strike is a bit harder, for it emulates sneak attack but only with melee weapons (and is it really on every hit??) but not impossible to have variations on ‘sneak attack’. The rest are pretty much standard feats. If we wanted to make the feat system a bit more flexible to accommodate this better kind of neat-o Prestige Feats (and no, I’m not suggesting necessarily that we call it that }:), we could have some feats take up 2 feat slots perhaps. Of course, the base classes might want to give out more feats more often to make up for this. One other thing, BTW, that the Duelist does that taking some feats and a level or two of rogue (for sneak attack/spot/etc) is allow one to advance with the abilities they want w/o taking a hit to your BAB. Whether this is a good thing or not, not sure. And that does bring up skill lists as well – right now I think the system of class and cross-class skills, not to mention the really low skill points for most classes doesn’t work quite the way I’d want it both in terms of how skilled people are generally, but also how broad a range of skills they should likely have (universities or no). So, what I think would work better would be more generic classes (Perhaps as RW is suggesting), with greater use of feats, more skill points and more feats available to customize the classes. Supplements could lose the PrC chapters and instead have better feat chapters, and then ‘character path’ suggestion chapters to make what would normally be a PrC. Also, specific ‘weapon feats’ could be introduced that only work with a weapon or certain weapons. Or certain spell-type feats. Ways to power spells as feats. Evasion as feats. And so on. Sure, it might make managing one’s character more ‘complex’, but given the level its at already where you have to pick feats and skills, I don’t think its that much more of a jump. For paladins and rangers and the like who have spellcasting, well, the Ranger is more or less a Fighter/Rogue/Druid, so it could be done through multiclassing relatively easily (relatively, not perfectly, of course }:) and a Paladin could be figher/cleric, with a ‘Divine Light’ feat for the bonus to saves, a feat for the mount, a feat for lay-on-hands, that kinda thing. Obviously somewhere it breaks down and won’t be perhaps exactly what we would expect, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Hmmm. Now if we made the lay-on-hands a [divine] feat, then a cleric could take it, in exchange for something else, like turning, for example. Now, an even neater possibility would be to have BAB and perhaps Saves tied to a feat in some way (each BAB + would be a feat, with a limitation of not being able to be greater than your character level). But the abuses that could result may have to be watched for. Anyway, I think I’m just getting carried away and throwing out ideas kinda randomly and without really thinking them through. }:) Disclaimer: I make no vouching for the above-presented ideas to work as stated and without much careful research and writing. }:> I think I'll stop for now before my fingers get carried away again… Kannik }:) [/QUOTE]
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