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Message: <blockquote data-quote="joethelawyer" data-source="post: 4442058" data-attributes="member: 55764">i am glad someone started this thread. i have been hearing snippets of this argument in other threads, and never agreed that thieves (i never refer to them as rogues) are gimped.  in our 3.0/3.5 games, to make it even harder for rogues to shine, i don't allow the flanking = backstab in the middle of combat.  i only let thieves backstab at the outset of an encounter, and then only if they get surprise on the enemy.  after that, they generally play sniper from the background, out of melee range.  also, i do not allow any of the prestige classes, kits, or specialty classes.  i only allow the basic classes from the 3.0 phb.that being said, i never see the magic users outshine the rogue in situations.  i as a dm give challenges to all classes in the adventure.  if a magic user blows his wad on invisibility and spider climb to the exclusion of web and fireball, the group as a whole is going to be screwed.  i design adventures to drain all classes and characters equally of hp, spell slots, healing, and magic item charges.  maybe i run my adventures different from most here. i dont have that 15 minute adventure day problem.  i don't allow rests for the night to recharge after 15 minutes of play, and my players know it.  they only rest/sleep/memorize spells if they have dont a full 8-12 hour day in.  i guess that just comes from my own working class background.  if they try to rest sooner, they WILL get jumped by wandering monsters.   i dont let them rest until they fight their way out to a place of rest.     one thing i have noticed from official wotc modules these days is that all encounters are meant to challenge a party in combat.  the challenge level is close to the characters level.  i take a more realistic aproach to stuff.  i don't have the monsters progressively get harder to kill as the players get higher in level.  sometmes my 10th level players just walk into a room with a single  5 hp orc sitting on a chair eating his dinner. for a challenge like that the magic user can shine with a charm spell to get a rough map of the surrounding area out of the orc.  if the magic user memorized and used too many thief type spells, he wont be able to do that.i think the heart of many people's rogue problems is in 2 parts:  first is that the game these days is more focused on combat and they made the rogue more combat oriented, thus having them take on a role they are not suited for,i think the real bigger problem though is that the thief class is now called rogue.  a thief has a guild.  a thief has connections in the underworld for sources of information.  a thief knows the black market. a thief is a player and can make things happen.with the focus on social interactions dependent on rolling dice for diplomacy checks rather than taking on the role of a thief with street smarts, and a good dm willing and able to do the same with the npc's, the role of a thief is wasted.with the focus on combat encounters a thief may as well be given backstab at will during combat, no matter how stupid that is if you actually think about it, just to give him something to do.</blockquote>

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