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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MasterOfHeaven" data-source="post: 164163" data-attributes="member: 196">333Dave:  Yeah, actually, that's one of the things that bothers me about the Rogue.  All of the other classes have some degree of self suffiency in combat, (even the Bard) but the Rogue is forced to rely on other characters to be truly effective in combat.  And in those situations where Sneak Attack doesn't work or isn't viable (which is quite often... Sneak Attack is really overrated) the Rogue is practically worthless in combat.Saphirahn:  Right.  So multiclassing into a spellcasting class is the answer?  And Sneak Attack is not that great, from what I've seen.  And I think getting 9th level spells at higher levels is more appealing to most players than getting Crippling Strike or Improved Evasion.Cybernetic:  No offense taken.  I do occasionally give certain players a chance to be in the spotlight.  I stopped trying to give Rogues as much showtime in the average adventure because my players would generally bypass what I had set up (IE, a shady NPC that the party needs to get information from, who only the Rogue can really deal with effectively...  The party casts Divination/Commune and gets the information without having to deal with the NPC).  The fact that the other characters didn't really need to me to give them special circumstances to shine (though I still do this on occasion) didn't help things.  Jasamcarl:  I might buy into that, except the fact that Rogues skills are useful in situations that do not occur many times in a day.  How many plot critical NPCs does your party find and interrogate in a day, after all?  And I don't give you a play-by-play of my campaign because I don't think it's neccessary.  If you want me to, I will.  Henry:  The spellcasters in my campaign do generally have a great Scrying skill, and generally speaking they only Scry when scouting out an enemy.  The only enemies that have misdirections set up in their lairs/ambush points are things like Dragons/Liches and really high level Wizards.  Any information they need they usually get through Divination/Commune. (I swear I'm considering banning these spells, but I don't like taking out core spells).  Crothian:  Maybe, but I've ambushed the party several times, and the spellcasters seem to do just fine.  Sodalis:  Technically, yes, this is a real question.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  I haven't had too many problems with spellcasters outperforming Fighters because I usually spread out the combats so Wizards have to conserve a few spells.  I guess our campaigns are just different, then, as the spellcasters in my campaign seem to have plenty of spells to deal with the situations a Rogue would normally excel in.Storminator:My first party has seven characters.  They are on average level 16.  My second party has eight characters, and they are on average level 11.  What you say makes sense.  Maybe in a smaller party the Rogue would be more useful.</blockquote>

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