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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zhure" data-source="post: 165043" data-attributes="member: 308">I only find the Wizards outshining the Rogue at "sneaky stuff" if the DM isn't doing his job well.I frequently put out red-herrings: draw out combat maps, post guards, roll initiative. Sometimes it's real, sometimes it's just a non-combat, or a parley situation. You'll find the casters marshalling their resources a lot more when you do this, but a Rogue can still tumble up and prepare to unleash Sneak Attack.Invisible flying Wizards surrounded by Silence? They had to get a Cleric or a Bard to cast Silence for them. A Wizard surrounded by Silence is generally a dead Wizzy. Most of his spells either won't work or he had to prepare them at a higher level and taken the Silent Feat. Sorcerers are at least a little better off, since they don't have to prepare.The example of a sixth level Wizard using Fly and Invisibility to scout ahead baffled me. This "scount" can do both for slightly less than an hour, but he's used ALL his (base) 3rd levels spells and half his 2nd level spells. If he is forced to resort to combat, that's most of his potent offense and defense tied up for one hour of effect. Best-case with an INT of 21 he's used half his 3rd level spells and 1/3rd of his 2nd level spells. This self-same scout Wizard by default "knows" only four 3rd level spells, one of which is Fly. Fly is a great spell, but Dispel Magic is a must-have, especially since this Wiz wants to emulate a Rogue and wants to be able to shut down magical traps. That means he has two more third level spells... he's almost as bad off as a Sorcerer. Since our scout Wiz will be doing a lot of scouting, he's probably either preparing these two every day, or he's leaving the slots open for later preparation (a good tactic if used sparingly). Either way, that's one less fireball, or GMW, or Haste, all of which can be far more devastating.Now at higher levels it's true a mage can outshine a Rogue in limited circumstances, but the same could be said of the Rogue using UMD. Burn on of the Rogue's Feats as Skill Focus: UMD and he's got a 25+CHA Mod skill at 20th level. He can use a Rod of Resurrection and a Wand of Fireballs with alacrity.Greg</blockquote>

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