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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 165158" data-attributes="member: 151">Allow me to chime in with an agreement that Rogues are not invalidated by spellcasters at higher levels, and to speak from experience.  Can they be?  Yes.  Are they, in general?  No.Let's look at a few factors:Party Resource:  This has been hit several times, but bears repeating.  No PC is an island.  In any case where you feel the need to compare a wizard directly against a rogue, make sure to factor in the benefits from the rest of the party.  Don't discuss a wizard protected by silence, unless you assume a rogue with the same ability.  A wizard can cast a fireball, but usually expects SOMEONE to slow down the opposition so he can.  When the pack of Girallons drops on the group, no amount of damage dealing will make up for low hit points on the wizard's part.  Limited Spells versus Unlimited Abilities:  Can a wizard or cleric duplicate most of a rogue's talents with magic?  Yes.  Is it cost-effective to do so?  Not usually.  The opportunity cost of such spells is prohibitive and requires specific preparation, usually 12-24 hours prior to their anticipated use.  Rogues abilities are available whenever and wherever needed.  Sorcerors generally don't take the spells that duplicate some of the rogue's abilities for their precious few slots, unless the character is specifically developed around that concept.  Underrated talents:  Disable Device and Use Magic Device.  Only a rogue can disable a magic trap.  A spellcaster could probably dispel the trap...but will generally have a harder time of it, unless he burns a precious greater dispelling (at the levels we're discussing).  Never mind that a wizard isn't likely to detect and identify the trap in the first place, unless he's burning detect magics all over the place.  The rogue's ability to use both arcane and divine spellcasting items, regardless of requirement is signifcant.  The rogue can trick an item into thinking she is different race, different alignment and has abilities she clearly doesn't have.  Wands and scrolls greatly enhance the rogue's effectiveness, and increase their unpredictability.  This also allows the rogue to cover weak spots in the group.  When the cleric goes down, the rogue can use a wand or scroll to heal them.  Need magical backup?  Wand of magic missles, online.  And so on.Skills, skills and more skills:  Fighters get feats, clerics get saves, and rogues get skills.  When the rogue rolls the dice and says: "Hmm....bad roll.  My spot worked out to....a 42."  You'll understand the power of those skill points.  Sense motive is good both in and out of combat.  The same applies to Bluff.  Diplomacy shouldn't be overlooked, either.  Rogues can become masters of non-combat situations, if they choose that route.  Wizards and fighters will never be as adept at this, nor were they meant to be.Versatility:  Rogues are excellent at filling gaps and covering a wide set of roles, depending on the needs of a group or game.  With their abilities, combined with a wise selection of feats, they can be highly effective, both in and out of combat.  A hasted rogue with Spring Attack, Improved Initiative and expertise, for example, is a scary thing.  By the same token, a rogue with a high Use Magic Device, Bluff, and Knowledge Arcana could easily bluff her way into a mage's guild.It seems to me, MOH, that what you're actually asking is: "My party is getting by without a rogue, so what makes them valuable?"  My answer would be that you're using characters to shore up the lack of a rogue just fine, so it's a non-issue for you.  Having a bard in the group covers many of the rogues abilities for you, and the sorceror probably helps cover those deficiencies as well.  Under no circumstances should you ever HAVE to have a rogue in your group, any more than any other class.  But in some situations, they will be much more handy than others.  A good game doesn't require any type of character, specifically...but each class has it's shining moments.  The rogue is equally valuable as the wizard/sorceror, cleric and fighter.This sounds more like a campaign flavor question than anything else.  Ask my players whether they rather give up their Rogue/Shadow Dancer for another wizard or fighter.  I'm pretty sure they appreciated her during the pit traps in Nightfang Spire, and had wished she'd examined the lethal dragon trap there, too.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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