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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 461139" data-attributes="member: 1363">I didn't even dive into the Divine spells, although Harm is clearly at the top of the list, it needs both a hp cap AND a saving throw added to it, in my opinion.  Actually, most of the other spells in the cleric domain I have less of a problem with, perhaps with the exception of the "hold" spells and "buff" spells that I addressed already under their arcane versions.  I saw Daze ABUSED in a campaign, that's why it made my list.  Give it a try, and throw it on a 1st level shaman against your PC's the next time their fighting a bunch of goblins.  Throw DAZE on the fighter for a few rounds and see what I mean... This is true.  Good point. The operating theory here is "I'm giving access to a higher level power to you earlier because it has a limitation on it."  Forget that, that's game imbalancing.  Spells that force opponents to completely lose actions should be higher level.  If you need to "compensate" then allow them to affect more creatures at the appropriate level, but I could make a pretty good arguement why you don't need to do that (comparing how much damage it would take to incapacitate an opponent vs. how quickly a "hold" spell incapacitates an opponent).   I think it addresses the problem, by putting "insta-hold" spells on par with "insta-kill" spells.  They all "incapacitate" your opponent, and will most likely put an end to a fight early.  I think it is acceptable to have spells that are powerful enough to do this, but they need to be of the appropriate level (6th - 9th).  All those range personal spells I mention are the one's that are overpowered.  I think it is a fallacious arguement to say the spell isn't too tough, because I'm throwing it on a "wimp".  I've seen WAY too many uses of all of these spells on potions, scrolls, tokens, rings of spell storing, and multi-classed characters that simply added up to abuse. Fix the spell, you fix the problem.My take on Levitate, Invis, Fly, T-port, and so in is simply that they all seem to be available rather early. B-S-T is a problem too, and I've hit it from both ends with my recommendations.  Ultimately, I don't think anyone would complain if they couldn't become invisible...at 3rd Level!  Think about the real world implications of such things.  These are all highly complex things, that would require siginificant resources to accomplish.  I think they all belong in a fantasy setting, simply in the hands of more powerful people than random low-level guys who are walking around interacting on a daily basis.</blockquote>

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