Are standard Swarms shapable?

[DrSpunj]

Our DM, Nail, threw three bird swarms at us last week (nuthatches, I guess). Having looked at the Swarm rules myself for my own game only a week or two before, I was surprised to see him maneuver the Swarms into several tetris-like configurations to attack the greatest number of PCs each round. There were 1x4 lines, L's, S's, T's, whatever.

We've been having a discussion about whether the RAW support his position. Here are the relevant bits of text, IMO, from the 3.5 SRD entry for the Swarm Subtype:

A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

Under the Swarm heading there are similar paragraphs before all the individual swarm entries. They are nearly identical to the Swarm Subtype entry above but do include this extra bit under the Combat section:

In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.

The SPACE entry for each Swarm statblock also lists 10'. He contends that the last paragraph of bolded text I quoted means he's free to make tetris-like swarms.

I believe that the "normal" configuration for a swarm is a 10' space (cube if flying like the birds) and that the text he's pointing to is only relevant when something limits the swarm from taking that shape (like when moving through and/or fighting you in a 5'-wide corridor, for instance) [EDIT: and to explain that the Squeezing rules for Larger creatures don't apply to Swarms.]

I think we both agree that large swarms are shapable, but while I've got everyone weighing in on this I'd like to hear what that exactly means to everybody. If you make a larger swarm by combining 4 smaller ones, you'd end up with a 20' space (16 squares). Since the text says it's shapable, would you move it into a 1x16 square configuration to attack two PCs that are 75' apart? What kind of limits are sensible here?

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

I'm the wacky DM that made this ruling. No rotten tomatoes, please!

Both DrSpunj and I are in agreement that "large swarms" (that is, swarms made of 2 or more swarms) are "shapable". As I see it, we disagree over whether only one swarm is shapable.

As he says above, I take as evidence the text in the swarm monster entry, as it is more specific than the Types chapter in the back of the MM. ...And I've fixated my tiny mind onto this relevant passage:

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.

To be fair, this passage only appears here, and not in the Types chapter. It could certainly be errata'd especially considering all of the other conflicts within the swarm entry.

What'd'ya think?

Rules people welcome!

 

[DrSpunj]

To be fair, this passage only appears here, and not in the Types chapter.

And what's the paragraph immediately preceding that one in the Swarm entry? This one!

In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.

If the section you quoted is the overriding rule, why do the authors bother stating in the very first part of both the monster entry and the swarm subtype entry that "A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures."

That's pretty explicit. It's either a square or a cube, 10' on a side. The section you're pointing at, to me, is a clarification of what to do with a swarm when it can't form a 10' square or cube.

Maybe I should've made this a poll....

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Gez]

I think that this:

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares

Is quite clear. So, yeah, a swarm can adopt the shape of any Tetris block.

  [color=pink]O[/color]
 [color=pink]OOO[/color]
[color=green]O[/color][color=red]OOOO[/color][color=blue]O[/color]
[color=green]OO[/color][color=yellow]OO[/color][color=blue]OO[/color]
[color=orange]O[/color][color=green]O[/color][color=yellow]OO[/color][color=blue]O[/color][color=wheat]O[/color]
[color=orange]OOO[/color][color=wheat]OOO[/color]

The total space occupied is never greater than a 10-ft-sided cube or square, but how it is shaped can vary.

 

[shilsen]

Our DM, Nail, threw three bird swarms at us last week (nuthatches, I guess).

Your party got attacked by a swarm of nuthatches? At this point I'd be less worried about rules and more about what happens when all the other adventurers hear about it

Nice going, Nail

As for the rules, I agree with Nail. Or what Gez said above.

 

[the Jester]

Yes, even a single swarm is completely shapable.

 

[DrSpunj]

Okay, then I'm obviously in the minority here. Still, with the interpretation of the majority I have a conflict with these two sections:

A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side...

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable.

The first quote does not use the term "a 10-foot space" like every other place in the relevant text does. Instead it specifically delineates a square or cube configuration. It is also the first place in both the monster entry and the subtype entry that talks about the shape of the swarm.

So my question becomes, why have the first quoted text at all if the second quote entirely trumps it? When & where would does the first text apply?

[EDIT: Also, further down in both the Swarm monster entry and the swarm subtype entry the text says this:

Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

If even standard swarms are shapable, why bother to state that larger swarms are shapable? /EDIT]

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[the Jester]

It doesn't state that "larger" swarms are shapable, it states that "large" swarms are shapable.

10' space = large size.

 

[DrSpunj]

It doesn't state that "larger" swarms are shapable, it states that "large" swarms are shapable.

10' space = large size.

You seem to be taking the sentence you want out of context. With your interpretation, Jester, the word "large" in that sentence is completely unnecessary since the standard swarm is large. With both sentences together I read the second sentence as a clarification of the first (which is necessary since, as I read the rules, standard swarms aren't shapable, they're either 10' squares or cubes. )

Here's both sentences again as they appear in the MM & SRD:

Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

I'm curious to see anyone else's opinion on this. At this point it's around 5 to 1 for shapable, but I'd like to get the "n" quite a bit higher than that.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[the Jester]

Hm, well, "Large" in dnd has a specific meaning (i.e. a creature size bigger than M and smaller than H)...

I'd say the "square or cube" reference is the base shape, just as the pic of a doppleganger in the MM shows it in its natural form.