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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hairfoot" data-source="post: 5053052" data-attributes="member: 23732">There are two components to that.  The first is what the rules do or do not allow, and the other is what sort of playing style the assumptions of the game strongly suggest.The ultra-balanced mathematical basis of 4E is a huge part of its sales pitch, and regarded as a great strength by its fanbase.  It's simply untrue to claim that a system like that can be tinkered with to any significant degree and not disrupt what's at its core.  That doesn't apply to games that are thin frameworks to which the players add their imagination.In addition, the default strength of the PCs and their abilities is much greater than in older editions and retro-clones.  All the pushes, pulls, marks, bloodied abilities, damage multipliers, limitless magical powers, minion foes and boo-yah dailies necessarily push each character far above the potency of a bare-bones PC.  That element can't be removed from 4E because it is 4E.That's not just 4E, of course.  2E began that trend, but it's moved ever upward since.The second element is the presentation of the game.  This topic invariably gets wound up in arguments about WoW and anime, but the fact is that a retro-clone assumes the PCs are daring mortals, while 4E assumes tieflings, laser beams, dragon-people, healing surges (in all their dissociation) and a metric crapload of magical gear.  A DM can cut those elements out, but he's still running the game in a system that assumes them, with books that employ an artistic style which reinforces it on every page.I didn't think my post was belligerent, but I certainly don't think a "fight" is necessary.  Not all games can do all things.  Recognising that frees everyone up.  I understand that hardcore 4E fans would like to believe that it's a truly universal fantasy game, but it isn't, just as a retro-clone can't provide a  RPG/wargame hybrid the same way 3E and 4E can.I agree.  The <a href="http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/01/wanting-to-say-why-not.html" target="_blank">gonzo-ness</a> is a great thing, and I hope it becomes more prominent in the OSR.Like most posters, however, I'm arguing from a position of wanting an RPG system to be able to provide a particular type of game, which for me at the moment is about mortal, Indiana Jones-y parties facing fairly human-scaled challenges.When I'm ready for lasgun bears I'll be reaching for Mutant Future or Star Frontiers!</blockquote>

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