Are things like Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy too easy?

You're correct - I noted that in my post a few above (see the big yellow text on the bottom), and then provided an update in another post below that one.

what i find ironic, is this thread has plowed on for 330+ posts and only now to do we get to the crux that "is [social skills] too easy" and how the math rules make it so.

I suspect that if the numbers didn't scale up so high with stacking modifiers, the original DC guidelines would have matched expected outcomes, and people's interpretations of the actual rules for the skills wouldn't matter.

Basically, Hussar saying if you win the Bluff check against the gate guard, then you get IN is OK when your chances of actually winning are not so lopsided that PCs are geting away with ridiculous things.

When the rules let you easily swing a +40 at a bluff check vs a DC40, then I can see yet another reason why you'd disagree with Hussar's interpretation of what a Successful Bluff should be able to do.
 

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In the abstract, turning a major villain into a friend who will expend resources to help you shouldn't be an more or less abusive than killing the same villain and stealing all his/her resources.

Except by killing him, you don't acquire the most powerful resource of the villain....the villain himself.
 

I think one of the disconnects in the game is that some players feel that a successful social skill role means they get exactly what they want and sometimes that is not true.

Take the magical dung, which cracked me up, just because you win the roll does not mean the Emperor is going to just hand over the keys unless he is insane or has a wisdom of 3.

Since you convinced him that it is magical dung he is going to call his adviser the archmage to check it out.

If you failed he would be angry and throw you in the dungeon.

Now this tactic would make a great diversion if the purpose is to actually get the archmage away from his quarters so you can steal the magical doohickey.

Players need to think out what they hope to happen with the social skill.
 

sometimes the entire party needs to help out, because the guy they're talking to makes it his business to talk to everyone. Other times, though, the diplomat says "stay close, shut up, and follow my lead" before seeing the king. In those situations, I dislike the skill challenge requirement (if there is one... as I said, my 4e knowledge is lacking) of having everyone be forced to contribute. As a game mechanic, it would help with balance, though.
I see it not as a game mechanic, but an encounter design and resolution guideline.

That is, (i) design encounters that all the players will want their PCs to engage (like the typical combat encounter) and (ii) as the encounter is resolving, maintain that pressure for full party engagement.

So if the party diplomancer is negotiating with Orcus, the other PCs don't just get to hang back in his or her shadow. Either they step up to the plate and engage; or Orcus asks them what they're doing there; or if they're hanging back like lackeys or servants, Orcus eats one of their souls to see how serious the diplomancer is about asking for favours; or whatever makes it hard for the diplomancer to get away with "stay close, shut up and follow my lead".

It's definitely a much bigger swing than killing him and looting him.
Except by killing him, you don't acquire the most powerful resource of the villain....the villain himself.
The villain has two sorts of resources to contribute. The first is his/her assistance in the immediate conflict, as JC notes. This can be a balance issue in some approaches to play. (I don't have anything more profound than that to say about it.)

The second is the villain as an ongoing ally. Acquiring this resource shouldn't, in most games, count as an unbalancing victory. Rather, it's a plot development which the GM should take account of in designing future challenges.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're asking for. Hope it gives you some idea of my preferences.
Yep.

I think one of the disconnects in the game is that some players feel that a successful social skill role means they get exactly what they want and sometimes that is not true.

Take the magical dung, which cracked me up, just because you win the roll does not mean the Emperor is going to just hand over the keys unless he is insane or has a wisdom of 3.

Since you convinced him that it is magical dung he is going to call his adviser the archmage to check it out.
I see this as less of a balance issue and more of a genre issue. Are you playing a nursery-tale style game? Then the Emperor will hand over the keys to the kingdom for the magic dung (think Jack and the Beanstalk, or The Emperor's New Clothes). But winning the kingdom probably won't itself break that sort of game, because the focus of that sort of game probably isn't wealth acquisition.

If you're playing a more serious game, where the Emperor is more like Denethor of Gondor, than what Elf Witch says is true.

I think the GM has to be clear in the way s/he handles player expectations around these genre issues.

It's a bit like the PC who deliberately jumps over a 200' cliff because the player knows that 20d6 can't be fatal for that particular character - a GM who pulls "gritty realist genre" on that player after the action declaration is locked in is probably going to produce some conflict at the table. Better to sort out all these expectations as to what is possible, relative to genre, before the players commit to actions and roll their dice.
 

I see this as less of a balance issue and more of a genre issue. Are you playing a nursery-tale style game? Then the Emperor will hand over the keys to the kingdom for the magic dung (think Jack and the Beanstalk, or The Emperor's New Clothes). But winning the kingdom probably won't itself break that sort of game, because the focus of that sort of game probably isn't wealth acquisition.

If you're playing a more serious game, where the Emperor is more like Denethor of Gondor, than what Elf Witch says is true.

I think the GM has to be clear in the way s/he handles player expectations around these genre issues.

It's a bit like the PC who deliberately jumps over a 200' cliff because the player knows that 20d6 can't be fatal for that particular character - a GM who pulls "gritty realist genre" on that player after the action declaration is locked in is probably going to produce some conflict at the table. Better to sort out all these expectations as to what is possible, relative to genre, before the players commit to actions and roll their dice.

This should go without saying. A lot depends on the genre and play styles. What works in a heavy story role playing type game may be different than a more casual beer and pretzels type game.

Which is why it is important that the lines of communication between DM and players stay open. Also both sides need to be upfront at the beginning of what they want out of the game.

As a DM I get frustrated if I say I want to run a low magic gritty style game and the players go cool lets make characters. Then later on you find out that one of the players really wants a high magic never worry about death game. They didn't tell you that because they just wanted to play and now are complaining or trying to force the game in a different direction.

As a player I hate when a DM does a bait and switch.
 

I see it not as a game mechanic, but an encounter design and resolution guideline.

That is, (i) design encounters that all the players will want their PCs to engage (like the typical combat encounter) and (ii) as the encounter is resolving, maintain that pressure for full party engagement.

So if the party diplomancer is negotiating with Orcus, the other PCs don't just get to hang back in his or her shadow. Either they step up to the plate and engage; or Orcus asks them what they're doing there; or if they're hanging back like lackeys or servants, Orcus eats one of their souls to see how serious the diplomancer is about asking for favours; or whatever makes it hard for the diplomancer to get away with "stay close, shut up and follow my lead".

And that, I think, is my issue. Can skill challenges cover just one character? Can you make a skill challenge where not everyone contributes? If that's not the case, then that's my problem, because now everyone forces your party to engage every time you're in a diplomatic situation.

As far as I know, you can make it a skill check rather than a skill challenge, but now it's not an extended check challenge, like a skill challenge would be (again, to my knowledge).

I understand that the design is to engage the entire party, but that's my beef with it. If it truly is linear design, in this area, it's something that I probably won't end up liking. If it's more mechanically dynamic than this, I'd be interesting in hearing how it is, as I like the concept of skill challenges (or extended challenges from white wolf), but not the implementation.

The villain has two sorts of resources to contribute. The first is his/her assistance in the immediate conflict, as JC notes. This can be a balance issue in some approaches to play. (I don't have anything more profound than that to say about it.)

It looks like we agree on this.

The second is the villain as an ongoing ally. Acquiring this resource shouldn't, in most games, count as an unbalancing victory. Rather, it's a plot development which the GM should take account of in designing future challenges.

Yep.

Only if they design challenges from a mechanic-first standpoint. And while many people do play that way, I don't, so I'd rather see the game made without that mechanic-first designing in mind.

I dislike games with the design goal of having PC challenges inherently tailored to the PCs. To me, it hurts my immersion, and no matter how much power the PCs gain, if the next challenge is crafted with the new power in mind, then you're engaging in the same difficulty challenge most of the time (please note the word "most"). But, that's personal preference, and I'm not sure that most D&D players would agree with me.

As always, play what you like :)
 

Can skill challenges cover just one character?
Yes. Just as a combat can be between one PC and one or more NPCs/monsters.

Can you make a skill challenge where not everyone contributes?
Yes. But just as, in a combat, if one PC hangs back it may often be bad for that PC and/or the other PCs, so likewise I would tend to design a skill challenge so that all the players have a reason to get their PCs involved.

As far as I know, you can make it a skill check rather than a skill challenge
Again, this is really an issue of encounter design. The game is built around the assumption that overcoming a significant conflict (like turning an enemy into a friend) won't be done with a single skill check, anymore than winning a signficant fight will happen with a single to hit roll.

But persuading a reluctant peasant to give directions might be a single check, just as cutting down that reluctant peasant for being rude would be a single attack roll (vs a minion).

If it truly is linear design, in this area, it's something that I probably won't end up liking.
I don't understand how linearity comes into it. If Orcus is threatening to eat the lackeys loitering in the rear, there are any number of ways those other PCs could respond - from making their own attempt to be charming, to trying in some form or other to persuade Orcus that they're not lackeys (perhaps the party sorcerer kills a nearby Vrock with a single spell, thus demonstrating his/her prowess and contributing a success to the skill challenge).

More generally - I don't see the connection between desigining and running an encounter so that it engages the whole party, and forcing a single path of successful resolution onto the players.

Upthread I may have linked to another thread where I gave an actual play example of "negotiating" with a dire bear. In that particular encounter, the party decided to tame the bear rather than fight it. Two PCs intimidated it - the sorcerer (wreathing himself in lighting) and the paladin (shaking his sword at it). Two other PCs befriended it - the wizard (patting it with mage hand) and the ranger (reaching out to it and scratching it under the chin).

The fighter - who had no nature or social skills - tried to grapple the bear to establish his physical superiority to it, but repeatedly failed.

The upshot of the encounter, once 6 successes had been obtained, was that the bear shied away from the sorcerer and paladin, and wanted to eat the fighter, but was persuaded not to do so by the wizard and ranger.

Had the player of the fighter not participated at all in the challenge, then the upshot for that PC would have been the same, or perhaps worse - because the bear hadn't seen that the fighter was a companion of the ranger and wizard, it may have been less inclined to listen when they tried to stop it from eating him.

Anyway, this is what I mean when I say that encouraging full party participation is a matter of design and adjudicating resolution, rather than simply of mechanics.

Only if they design challenges from a mechanic-first standpoint.

<snip>

I dislike games with the design goal of having PC challenges inherently tailored to the PCs.
I don't follow this.

To elaborate - I understand that you don't like scaled/tailored challenges. But why is this a reason not to let the PCs befriend an (ex-)enemy? Presumably, the PCs are allowed to do other things to change both their social/political situation in the gameworld, and to change the resources available to them to meet the challenges they face. For example, I assume that in your game the PCs can befriend merchants, hobnob with guard captains, ingratiate themselves to mayors and barons, and the like. Outside the immediate context of a combat or similar (which gives rise to the "dominate monster" balance problem you noted above), isn't turning an enemy into a friend in the same (permissible) category as these other things?
 

Yes. Just as a combat can be between one PC and one or more NPCs/monsters.

If skill challenges can be engaged with one character, then they seem similar to extended rolls from white wolf, which I like in concept. That's a good sign, in my opinion.

Yes. But just as, in a combat, if one PC hangs back it may often be bad for that PC and/or the other PCs, so likewise I would tend to design a skill challenge so that all the players have a reason to get their PCs involved.

Yes, but in D&D, all classes are designed for combat. Not all classes are designed to engage things from a social standpoint. So, when the Party Face says "fall behind me, follow my lead, and shut up" because he knows the party has no social tact or knowledge of tradition, it's a very different thing than saying the same thing in a combat scenario.

As for designing a skill challenge that targets all of the PCs, I dislike that as well, for the reasons I've stated already. Maybe I can clarify below.

Again, this is really an issue of encounter design. The game is built around the assumption that overcoming a significant conflict (like turning an enemy into a friend) won't be done with a single skill check, anymore than winning a signficant fight will happen with a single to hit roll.

I agree, I was questioning whether or not one party member could engage in a social challenge alone, without mandatory aid of his allies.

But persuading a reluctant peasant to give directions might be a single check, just as cutting down that reluctant peasant for being rude would be a single attack roll (vs a minion).

That makes sense to me.

I don't understand how linearity comes into it. If Orcus is threatening to eat the lackeys loitering in the rear, there are any number of ways those other PCs could respond - from making their own attempt to be charming, to trying in some form or other to persuade Orcus that they're not lackeys (perhaps the party sorcerer kills a nearby Vrock with a single spell, thus demonstrating his/her prowess and contributing a success to the skill challenge).

Again, with someone like Orcus, I can see him wanting to engage the entire party. If it's a member of royalty, they might very well engage the entire party, or they might simply ignore those who aren't supposed to be talking (based on status).

If the system dictates that all situations must be played out in a way that forces all of the PCs to contribute to every skill challenge, that is where linear design and function comes into play. And that's what I would have a problem with, if that's the case.

More generally - I don't see the connection between desigining and running an encounter so that it engages the whole party, and forcing a single path of successful resolution onto the players.

I honestly don't know what you're getting at with this.

Upthread I may have linked to another thread where I gave an actual play example of "negotiating" with a dire bear. In that particular encounter, the party decided to tame the bear rather than fight it. Two PCs intimidated it - the sorcerer (wreathing himself in lighting) and the paladin (shaking his sword at it). Two other PCs befriended it - the wizard (patting it with mage hand) and the ranger (reaching out to it and scratching it under the chin).

The fighter - who had no nature or social skills - tried to grapple the bear to establish his physical superiority to it, but repeatedly failed.

Yeah, I read that, and boy did it sound ridiculous to me. Two members try to scare it while two other members simultaneously try to soothe it, while one other member simultaneously runs up and grabs it. And it ends up liking two members while dismissing two, and disliking the last member.

That's utterly and completely immersion shattering to me. If I ran that past my players, they'd think so, too. It may not be to you, and that's honestly fine with me, but it just wouldn't make sense for my group.

The upshot of the encounter, once 6 successes had been obtained, was that the bear shied away from the sorcerer and paladin, and wanted to eat the fighter, but was persuaded not to do so by the wizard and ranger.

Had the player of the fighter not participated at all in the challenge, then the upshot for that PC would have been the same, or perhaps worse - because the bear hadn't seen that the fighter was a companion of the ranger and wizard, it may have been less inclined to listen when they tried to stop it from eating him.

Yeah, I understand what happened. I just couldn't feel immersed by it.

Anyway, this is what I mean when I say that encouraging full party participation is a matter of design and adjudicating resolution, rather than simply of mechanics.

To me, it sounds like the mechanics decided the bear wouldn't attack (by achieving the six successes). While that's not inherently bad in and of itself, the fact that the party reacted with such wildly different attempts simultaneously should've ended the challenge right then and there, in my mind. But, as the mechanics showed that the players succeeded, it is then reasoned out why that is, and what it thinks of each party member. I just can't put mechanics first like that and feel immersed.

I don't follow this.

To elaborate - I understand that you don't like scaled/tailored challenges. But why is this a reason not to let the PCs befriend an (ex-)enemy? Presumably, the PCs are allowed to do other things to change both their social/political situation in the gameworld, and to change the resources available to them to meet the challenges they face.

The problem lies in the long term disposition or attitude change of NPCs. That is what causes the majority of skill abuse or odd situations to pop up. I have no problem with PCs using a skill to convince somebody to try to act in a certain way. I do have a problem with "you made your skill checks, and he'll treat you this way from now on" as those skill DCs are too easily bypassed, and even if they weren't, the fact that it changes their entire attitude towards you so quickly and immediately is rather problematic to how people actually are, in my view.

For example, I assume that in your game the PCs can befriend merchants, hobnob with guard captains, ingratiate themselves to mayors and barons, and the like. Outside the immediate context of a combat or similar (which gives rise to the "dominate monster" balance problem you noted above), isn't turning an enemy into a friend in the same (permissible) category as these other things?

Not mechanically, no. There are no mechanics in my game (which I obviously prefer) that allow long term attitude changes. The PCs can indeed befriend merchants, hobnob with guard captains, ingratiate themselves to mayor and barons, and the like, but not mechanically. Diplomacy is based off of the GitP skill (though altered), and covers only specific deals. Intimidate has been changed to alter how they see you on the Risk vs. Reward scale when you make a Diplomacy check. Bluff is similar to how it's always been (as Bluff never let you dictate actions to NPCs, nor did it change their attitude or disposition mechanically).

I do not believe that social skills that allow for long term change in NPC attitude are a wise path for a D&D-style game (or maybe games in general, but I'm not experienced enough in other systems to make that claim). But, that's just my opinion, and I know that many people find them convenient and enjoy them. To those people, I say use them. Anything that makes the game more fun.

To my group, they're rather absurd most of the time, when used to affect long term attitudes of NPCs. It kills immersion for many of us, breaks our suspension of disbelief, and lowers our overall enjoyment. So, when designing a game with the fun of myself and my group in mind, out they go, where they are replaced with short term deals and ways to manipulate NPCs.

As always, play what you like :)
 

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