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Are things like Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy too easy?
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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 5590649" data-attributes="member: 386"><p>Social conflicts seem to work pretty well in my game (4e, more or less).</p><p></p><p>I think there are two reasons it works for me.</p><p></p><p>1. I use an "action resolution" system; to me, this means that the dice only resolve the outcome of actions that are grounded in the game world. In other words, "I roll Diplomacy" makes no sense and we can't proceed with resolution. That's because I don't know if the player needs to roll, what modifiers would be added to the roll, what the DC would be, and what the outcome of that roll means. All of that depends on what the PC actually says.</p><p></p><p>2. I use a simple criteria to judge if a roll needs to be made based on what the PC's action is: did what the PC say or do trigger an internal conflict in the NPC? In other words, as I'm playing the NPC, if the player has his or her PC say or do something and I don't know how the NPC will respond, I call for a roll. The roll determines how it shakes out.</p><p></p><p>The number of successes required is interesting because it leads to more complex interactions and compromises made by opposing sides.</p><p></p><p>Here are some of the guidelines:</p><p></p><p>[sblock]1. Conflict</p><p>* Only Conflict: This procedure resolves social conflicts between characters. If there isn’t a conflict of interest between characters, do not continue with the procedure.</p><p>2. Determine Successes Required</p><p>* Reaction Roll Determines NPC Obstinacy: The DM sets the number of successes that are required to resolve the conflict based on the NPC’s disposition. If this is not known, the DM makes a Reaction roll, consulting the table below.</p><p>[code]3d6 Roll </p><p>+ Charisma Modifier Reaction Successes</p><p>4 or less Extremely hostile, no dialogue possible --</p><p>5-8 Hostile, possible attack 8</p><p>9-12 Uncertain, cautious, and wary 6</p><p>13-16 Interested in dialogue 4</p><p>17+ Looking to make friends 2[/code]</p><p>3. Declare Actions, Determine Modifiers, Determine DC, Take Action, and Resolve Actions</p><p>* Skill Checks: For these steps, use the same procedures outlined in steps 2 through 6 of the Skill Check sub-system.</p><p>* Resolve *what the character actually says*, not the outcome of the die roll! This is the most important piece of resolution. A success or failure has no meaning on its own; it is only when combined with the actual words and physical actions of the character that there can be any resolution - and thus the NPC's response. If the player does not describe their action, the NPC can not respond, and resolution will break down.</p><p>* Actions Take Any Form: Actions may take any form – physical, social, or even magical. Although this system resolves social conflicts, characters may take any action they want.</p><p>* Saying "No": Sometimes the PC will say or do something that makes no sense for the NPC to listen to. There's no way the PC will be able to convince the NPC of what was just said. In these cases, there is no conflict. Think of a social conflict resolving _internal conflicts_ within the NPC; if what the PC says does not trigger some kind of internal conflict, there's no need to roll; just say no. Saying no results in an automatic failure as long as it is the PC's action and is relevant to the context of the ongoing discussion.</p><p>* Saying Yes: The flip side to saying no is saying yes. When the PC says or does something that triggers no internal conflict because the _NPC already agrees_, there's no need to roll. Saying yes results in an automatic success as long as it is the PC's action and is relevant to the context of the ongoing discussion.</p><p>* Only Players Roll: The players make rolls for PCs who are taking actions. The DM does not roll for the NPCs, though he still declares actions for them.</p><p>* Modifiers: Make sure to apply modifiers to both the PC's action and the NPC's defence, as outlined in the Skill Check sub-system.</p><p>* DM Advice: Each action should be resolved in the normal manner, with each roll resolving the conflicting actions taken. Remember that, save in the presence of magic or physical compulsion, no character can be forced to do something. The number of successes the PCs need to roll determines the NPC’s obstinacy, so as a DM you have to keep this in mind. You have to give the NPCs something to keep fighting for – something they want - as long as the social conflict carries on.</p><p>* Passionate Characters: Social conflict is more rewarding when the characters involved have something they want to fight for. When playing NPCs, the DM should push as hard as possible – without sacrificing characterization – against the PCs.</p><p>4. Tally Failures and Successes</p><p>* Each Action Carries Risk or Reward: The outcome of each action the characters take, if it resolves some conflict, must have either its success or failure tallied up.</p><p>* Keep It Fresh: Try not to have the NPC remain static, using the same line of argument repeatedly. Change your arguments based on how previous actions have been resolved. As the PCs accumulate successes, the NPC becomes more and more amenable to the PC’s suggestions; the reverse is true as the PCs accumulate failures. Make sure you know what the NPC wants and what kind of compromises they are willing to make.</p><p>5. Repeat Steps 3 – 4</p><p>* Continue to have characters declare actions and tally successes and failures until either the required number of successes (as set in step 2) have been achieved, or 3 failures have occurred.</p><p>6. Determine Outcome</p><p>* Based on the outcome of the skill challenge - failure or success - determine the actions of the characters involved based on what has been said, promised, or negotiated.</p><p>7. Bank XP</p><p>* If the conflict resulted in a success for the PCs, Bank the XP to the PCs for overcoming the encounter.[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 5590649, member: 386"] Social conflicts seem to work pretty well in my game (4e, more or less). I think there are two reasons it works for me. 1. I use an "action resolution" system; to me, this means that the dice only resolve the outcome of actions that are grounded in the game world. In other words, "I roll Diplomacy" makes no sense and we can't proceed with resolution. That's because I don't know if the player needs to roll, what modifiers would be added to the roll, what the DC would be, and what the outcome of that roll means. All of that depends on what the PC actually says. 2. I use a simple criteria to judge if a roll needs to be made based on what the PC's action is: did what the PC say or do trigger an internal conflict in the NPC? In other words, as I'm playing the NPC, if the player has his or her PC say or do something and I don't know how the NPC will respond, I call for a roll. The roll determines how it shakes out. The number of successes required is interesting because it leads to more complex interactions and compromises made by opposing sides. Here are some of the guidelines: [sblock]1. Conflict * Only Conflict: This procedure resolves social conflicts between characters. If there isn’t a conflict of interest between characters, do not continue with the procedure. 2. Determine Successes Required * Reaction Roll Determines NPC Obstinacy: The DM sets the number of successes that are required to resolve the conflict based on the NPC’s disposition. If this is not known, the DM makes a Reaction roll, consulting the table below. [code]3d6 Roll + Charisma Modifier Reaction Successes 4 or less Extremely hostile, no dialogue possible -- 5-8 Hostile, possible attack 8 9-12 Uncertain, cautious, and wary 6 13-16 Interested in dialogue 4 17+ Looking to make friends 2[/code] 3. Declare Actions, Determine Modifiers, Determine DC, Take Action, and Resolve Actions * Skill Checks: For these steps, use the same procedures outlined in steps 2 through 6 of the Skill Check sub-system. * Resolve *what the character actually says*, not the outcome of the die roll! This is the most important piece of resolution. A success or failure has no meaning on its own; it is only when combined with the actual words and physical actions of the character that there can be any resolution - and thus the NPC's response. If the player does not describe their action, the NPC can not respond, and resolution will break down. * Actions Take Any Form: Actions may take any form – physical, social, or even magical. Although this system resolves social conflicts, characters may take any action they want. * Saying "No": Sometimes the PC will say or do something that makes no sense for the NPC to listen to. There's no way the PC will be able to convince the NPC of what was just said. In these cases, there is no conflict. Think of a social conflict resolving _internal conflicts_ within the NPC; if what the PC says does not trigger some kind of internal conflict, there's no need to roll; just say no. Saying no results in an automatic failure as long as it is the PC's action and is relevant to the context of the ongoing discussion. * Saying Yes: The flip side to saying no is saying yes. When the PC says or does something that triggers no internal conflict because the _NPC already agrees_, there's no need to roll. Saying yes results in an automatic success as long as it is the PC's action and is relevant to the context of the ongoing discussion. * Only Players Roll: The players make rolls for PCs who are taking actions. The DM does not roll for the NPCs, though he still declares actions for them. * Modifiers: Make sure to apply modifiers to both the PC's action and the NPC's defence, as outlined in the Skill Check sub-system. * DM Advice: Each action should be resolved in the normal manner, with each roll resolving the conflicting actions taken. Remember that, save in the presence of magic or physical compulsion, no character can be forced to do something. The number of successes the PCs need to roll determines the NPC’s obstinacy, so as a DM you have to keep this in mind. You have to give the NPCs something to keep fighting for – something they want - as long as the social conflict carries on. * Passionate Characters: Social conflict is more rewarding when the characters involved have something they want to fight for. When playing NPCs, the DM should push as hard as possible – without sacrificing characterization – against the PCs. 4. Tally Failures and Successes * Each Action Carries Risk or Reward: The outcome of each action the characters take, if it resolves some conflict, must have either its success or failure tallied up. * Keep It Fresh: Try not to have the NPC remain static, using the same line of argument repeatedly. Change your arguments based on how previous actions have been resolved. As the PCs accumulate successes, the NPC becomes more and more amenable to the PC’s suggestions; the reverse is true as the PCs accumulate failures. Make sure you know what the NPC wants and what kind of compromises they are willing to make. 5. Repeat Steps 3 – 4 * Continue to have characters declare actions and tally successes and failures until either the required number of successes (as set in step 2) have been achieved, or 3 failures have occurred. 6. Determine Outcome * Based on the outcome of the skill challenge - failure or success - determine the actions of the characters involved based on what has been said, promised, or negotiated. 7. Bank XP * If the conflict resulted in a success for the PCs, Bank the XP to the PCs for overcoming the encounter.[/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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