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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 5591661" data-attributes="member: 5890">Then your players are significantly worse at building combat characters than they are at building skillful ones. This has been possible since 3rd edition.I think this whole topic is yet another example of "martial characters don't get to do cool things".Noone bats an eye when charm person (which makes someone your friend) gets the guard to let you past. But when the bard (or insert other skill user) does the exact same thing with diplomacy, it's somehow an issue.I think part of the key is probably not to expect the player of the diplomizing character to be an expert in con games, any more than you expect the player of a warrior to be an expert in swinging a sword. If the idea of persuasion above and beyond mortal men is really that hard to swallow, you might consider reading some works on con games, giving the character in question a cheat sheet on them and then giving the characters enough time and the setup to pull them off.Lets face it, most DMs will think hard about the location and layout of a fight with guards, but chances are they won't detail the guards on a complex enough to allow a con man a decent chance to do his thing.</blockquote>