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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 5592835" data-attributes="member: 5890">The charm spell explicitly says that it makes the target your friend. It's not a compulsion to do a specific thing and it's not general purpose mind control. It makes the target consider you a friend. A good friend, but a friend. That same guard that is invincible to diplomacy and intimidate should still be saying "look, you're a good buddy but I still can't let you it". In 3rd, it does have an extra "you can get people to do things against their nature with a roll" clause, but you still have to ask them to do it, and it never says that they're happy doing it.Again - it's part of the "magic gets away with anything" effect. DMs look at the spell and just assume that the target does whatever you want, while someone aceing that diplomacy or intimidate will get all kinds of funny looks.I agree that the social interaction mechanics are fairly poor. However once again - cast a spell and it just works.Yup, the BBEG likes the bard and wants to help him. That doesn't mean he'll spare his friends. It doesn't mean that he'll just give up and become a good guy unconditionally. It doesn't even mean that he won't kill the bard - it just means he'll see to it that he gets resurrected afterwards - death is just a speedbump after all. It does mean that he'll feel conflicted about it. It does mean that he'll most likely accept the bard's surrender. He might change aspects of how he goes about his plan. He might believe the bard if the bard can convince him that his plan is flawed.Just take a look at the interaction between Professor X and Magneto (as the first thing to spring to mind). The guys are friends, really good friends. That doesn't stop magneto knocking Prof. X out of action, and doesn't stop him from continuing his plans for eradicating the human race. It doesn't stop professor X from seeing that magneto is imprisoned for his crimes. In fact pretty much the only thing that it changes is that Magneto seems to make at least some effort not to kill Prof X. and vice versa.I'd also like to point out that it's pretty anticlimactic if the wizard just does something like cast imprisonment.An anticlimax is just an excuse to have a bigger climax later.You don't need to change the rules and assign arbitrarily large penalties if you just read the rules. The rules aren't the unrealistic and unbelievable thing here - the adjudication of those rules is. Friends don't unconditionally obey each other. Friends disagree. Friends fall out. Friends become the bitterest enemies.</blockquote>

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