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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 5605467" data-attributes="member: 8835">I disagree here.  When somebody is using Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomacy, they are NOT just trying to convince somebody of an unbelievable thing.  They are trying to MANIPULATE the person into taking a desired course of action.There's a HUGE difference.  I have convinced my friend MULTIPLE times that there was a scratch on his new Mustang.  My desired intent was to make him race out and check on it.  Because that is what someone who is convinced that his NEW car has been scratched does.  That is manipulation, and it is the point of bluffing somebody.Therefore, when I am Daniel Ocean and I approach the guard saying I represent the Nevada Gaming Commission, I make whatever skill checks the rules say I need to, and if I succeed, he lets me in.The guard has not ceased to think.  The guard has taken in the information presented before him, that a person with proper papers and appropriate attire and is saying the expected things of somebody who belongs there, needs to be let in.If I succeed at the proper skill checks and the guard "believes" I am who I say I am, but he "thinks" of a reason NOT to let me in, then the GM has thwarted my legal use of the skill.  Active thwarting of player intent is the slippery slope to railroading.I can certainly agree that there are variations on that bluff the guard attempt that should fail.  A low level PC attempting too unbelievable a con for instance (which the DCs should make inevitably impossible).Nor would I be impressed by a non-role player saying, "I walk up to the guard and make a bluff check to convince him to let me in."  That basically means the player did no thinking, and is going to expect me to come up with the entire plausible reason for the guard to let him in IF he suceeds.  That's crap.However, if I have a high level social skill PC, and I know a bit about the area (a casino in Nevada) and I come up with the idea to pose as some agency official that oversees gambling, then I am on the right track, and once the DC is set and I make my roll, I expect to be able to get in as far as an NGC rep could expect to get in (which Ocean's 11 shows is reasonably far).If, as a GM, you say that such a scenario can't be allowed to suceed, I'd be concerned about your judgement.  Fiction advises and inspired RPG action.  If I can't run a PC inspired by such movies, barring a genre misjudgement on my part (wrong PC for the campaign), I should have a fair chance of succeeding at such a con.</blockquote>

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